v2.6 ancient (refined)

Target: cass
Distance: 1.2016% / 0.01201626
54.0 Proto_Slav
37.2 Old_German
4.8 Keltic
4.0 SE_Euro

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dardanos

This is actually a very interesting thing I’ve noticed.

If you take out Torlak speakers (such as Gorani and others, whose speech Serbs consider Serbian despite being grammatically closer to Bulgarian, Macedonian, and other Eastern South Slavic dialects), Serbs have a very unified speech. From Mitrovica to Sombor and Banja Luka they mostly speak the same language, with only different accents.

Meanwhile, Slovenes and Croats have dialects so different that people living just 100–200 km apart often can’t understand each other.

Most of the Brda Montenegrins were Vlachs who adopted the Serbian ethnos during the Ottoman period, and many of them were originally Catholic.

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"Torlak" speakers are Serbian, and even among them I2-PH908 is most widespread of all haplogroups.
Serbs from south differs from both N.Macedonians and Bulgarians, by both genetics and linguistics, and are closer to other Serbs than to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cass

Target: cass
Distance: 1.2016% / 0.01201626
54.0 Proto_Slav
37.2 Old_German
4.8 Keltic
4.0 SE_Euro

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Sorry my Polish friend, more proto-Slav than you. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.5257% / 0.02525666
59.4 Proto_Slav
38.8 SE_Euro
1.8 Eurasian

Avar stronk!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

"Torlak" speakers are Serbian, and even among them I2-PH908 is most widespread of all haplogroups.
Serbs from south differs from both N.Macedonians and Bulgarians, by both genetics and linguistics, and are closer to other Serbs than to them.

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For DNA I don’t know, I was talking about linguistics.

No, Torlak is grammatically more similar to Macedonian and Bulgarian.

Because all of them are part of the same language family, the only way to differentiate them is grammar.

Torlak is part of the Balkan Sprachbund and has developed some features that Albanian, Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, and Macedonian have.

Torlak even has an evidential mood similar to Romanian and Albanian, and it even uses definite articles.

That, to me, doesn’t sound anything like Serbian.

The only argument you can use is that proper Serbian in the Middle Ages was more eastern and more like Macedonian, but it became Croaticized in later years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Target: Feiichy_scaled
Distance: 0.0312% / 0.03123582

57.1 Proto_Slav
28.9 SE_Euro
13.0 Old_German
1.0 Volga_Finn

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Feiichy, this Vlach Dušan is more proto-Slav than you, on your own calculator. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dardanos

For DNA I don’t know, I was talking about linguistics.

No, Torlak is grammatically more similar to Macedonian and Bulgarian.

Because all of them are part of the same language family, the only way to differentiate them is grammar.

Torlak is part of the Balkan Sprachbund and has developed some features that Albanian, Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, and Macedonian have.

Torlak even has an evidential mood similar to Romanian and Albanian, and it even uses definite articles.

That, to me, doesn’t sound anything like Serbian.

The only argument you can use is that proper Serbian in the Middle Ages was more eastern and more like Macedonian, but it became Croaticized in later years.

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Hahaha so its not only closer to Bulgarian, but to Albanian, than to other Serbian dialects?! :lol:

Do you speak and understand Serbian or some Slavic language overall? No, of course.

I can understand south Serbian dialect perfectly without any problem, because it is Serbian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Hahaha so its not only closer to Bulgarian, but to Albanian, than to other Serbian dialects?! :lol:

Do you speak and understand Serbian or some Slavic language overall? No, of course.

I can understand south Serbian dialect perfectly without any problem, because it is Serbian.

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Where did I say that Torlak is more similar to Albanian than to Serbian?

I said it developed some grammatical features like Albanian and Romanian.

My claim was that Torlak, as a language or dialect, is more similar to Bulgarian–Macedonian than to official Serbian.

Languages are not measured by how much you can understand them, but by how much grammar and vocabulary they share.

In this case, where both languages are from the same language group, it is grammar and sound shifts that we can observe.

And all I need to know is different sentences to compare them:

English
Torlakian (Western)
Torlakian (Eastern)
Serbian (Standard)
Macedonian (Standard)
Bulgarian (Standard)

I see the man.

Jaz vidim čovek-ot.

Jaz go vidam čovek-ot.

Vidim čoveka.

Go vidam čovek-ot.

Vidjah čovek-ǎt.


I want to go to the house.

Ću da idam v kuću. (or Ću idu v kuću)

Sašta da odam v kuća-ta.

Hoću da idem u kuću. (or infinitive: Hoću ići u kuću)

Sašam da odam vo kuќa-ta.

Iskam da oti da v kušta-ta.


The cat of Ivan’s.

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačka Ivana (genitive)

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačkata na Ivan.


I have seen it.

Jaz sum go vidjal.

Jaz sum go vidjal.

Video sam ga.

Go sum go videl.

Vidjal sum go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dardanos

Where did I say that Torlak is more similar to Albanian than to Serbian?

I said it developed some grammatical features like Albanian and Romanian.

My claim was that Torlak, as a language or dialect, is more similar to Bulgarian–Macedonian than to official Serbian.

Languages are not measured by how much you can understand them, but by how much grammar and vocabulary they share.

In this case, where both languages are from the same language group, it is grammar and sound shifts that we can observe.

And all I need to know is different sentences to compare them:

English
Torlakian (Western)
Torlakian (Eastern)
Serbian (Standard)
Macedonian (Standard)
Bulgarian (Standard)

I see the man.

Jaz vidim čovek-ot.

Jaz go vidam čovek-ot.

Vidim čoveka.

Go vidam čovek-ot.

Vidjah čovek-ǎt.


I want to go to the house.

Ću da idam v kuću. (or Ću idu v kuću)

Sašta da odam v kuća-ta.

Hoću da idem u kuću. (or infinitive: Hoću ići u kuću)

Sašam da odam vo kuќa-ta.

Iskam da oti da v kušta-ta.


The cat of Ivan’s.

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačka Ivana (genitive)

Mačkata na Ivan.

Mačkata na Ivan.


I have seen it.

Jaz sum go vidjal.

Jaz sum go vidjal.

Video sam ga.

Go sum go videl.

Vidjal sum go.

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You clearly show in sample that I marked as red that it closer to official Serbian, than to Bulgarian and Macedonian.

By the way, ALL of that is pretty understandable, even to western Serbs as I am.
I could understand most of northern Slavic languages, let alone N. Macedonian and Bulgarian that are nearby.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dardanos

My claim was that Torlak, as a language or dialect, is more similar to Bulgarian–Macedonian than to official Serbian.

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Prizrensko Timocki dialects (since Torlakian is not accepted name and only small portion of speakers near Stara Planina are called Torlaks) are by vocabulary closer to serbian and by grammar they can go into so called Balkan schprachbund.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hazmatnik

Prizrensko Timocki dialects (since Torlakian is not accepted name and only small portion of speakers near Stara Planina are called Torlaks) are by vocabulary closer to serbian and by grammar they can go into so called Balkan schprachbund.

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And "Balkan schprachbund" is in some cases widespread all across Serb area, not only in south.

"Ja ću i dalje da ti pišem pesme" more popular than "Ja ću ti i dalje pisati pesme"