I don't care about personal details, but I need a proper rural/urban label for each sample.
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it doesn't matter how wide the Paleo-Balkan cluster gets. After the impact of the Roman Empire, there were no pure paleo-Balkanians anymore.
for example, here is the demographic history of just one of the Roman Provinces. (i don't mean the haplogroups, scroll down.)
update, thanks to Ion Basescul.
https://i.imgur.com/OLqRBwx.png
after removing 6 outliers from the 530 Romanians and Moldovans:
https://i.imgur.com/7bbVaxY.png
I tried to divide Romania into 3 traditional regions, but they occupy the same range on the plot. that's why i used just one big "Romanian/Moldovan" cluster.
red cluster is Bulgarian and green Macedonian/Aromanian?
Could you add Hungarians perhaps?
yes.
could you send me the k13 Hungarian database?
i tried that too. maybe the best division is Wallachia+South Moldova on one side, and Transylvania+Moldavia+Moldova on the other.
these are the outliers btw:
i think they have some real Scythian ancestry.Code:Romania_Moldavia_12_Botosani,18.23,40,15.66,8.32,10.78,0,2.34,0.76,1,1.93,0.99,0,0
Moldova_7_Edinet,20.49,37.99,14.24,10.49,12.58,1.15,0,0,2.42,0.33,0,0,0.31
Moldova_47_Balti,18.18,36.07,14.32,12.57,10.84,2.87,0.06,1.99,1.21,0,0.7,0.65,0.55
Moldova_66_Chisinau,16.62,36.01,12.23,12.45,12.34,1.86,4.34,0,1.65,1.59,0.55,0.36,0
Romania_Muntenia_140_Bucuresti,14.94,30.25,18.1,12.55,17.83,1.55,1.44,1.79,0,0.8,0.37,0,0.4
Romania_Muntenia_142_Bucuresti,17.68,34.22,13.55,6.36,24.84,0.77,0.42,0,1.03,0.89,0,0,0.23
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6675961
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6676015
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6676079
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6676595
But Dunai said he's working on significant update. It's lot of work to put them on PCA, so maybe better wait for update.
Some Romanian, presumably from Western Romania. Ion, if you need the number, I will share it with you.
Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 25.16
2 North_Atlantic 23.37
3 East_Med 18.83
4 West_Med 14.47
5 West_Asian 11.4
6 Red_Sea 3.31
7 Oceanian 1.67
8 East_Asian 1.05
9 South_Asian 0.7
10 Siberian 0.06
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 3.7
2 Bulgarian 4.4
3 Serbian 5.51
4 Moldavian 10.82
5 Greek_Thessaly 11.93
6 Hungarian 13.2
7 Croatian 13.62
8 Austrian 16.25
9 Tuscan 17.18
10 Italian_Abruzzo 17.67
11 North_Italian 17.69
12 East_German 18.14
13 Central_Greek 18.45
14 West_Sicilian 19.46
15 East_Sicilian 19.62
16 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.74
17 West_German 20.03
18 South_Polish 20.45
19 Ashkenazi 20.81
20 French 20.81
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.7% Serbian + 11.3% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.23
2 88.8% Serbian + 11.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.26
3 57.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 42.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.28
4 57.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 42.6% Southwest_Russian @ 2.31
5 88.5% Serbian + 11.5% Assyrian @ 2.34
6 88.6% Serbian + 11.4% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.44
7 88.6% Serbian + 11.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.48
8 87.5% Serbian + 12.5% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.49
9 64.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 35.8% Lithuanian @ 2.54
10 87.8% Serbian + 12.2% Syrian @ 2.59
11 89.1% Serbian + 10.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.59
12 59.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 40.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.6
13 60.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 39.6% Belorussian @ 2.67
14 88.5% Serbian + 11.5% Jordanian @ 2.7
15 52.6% Central_Greek + 47.4% South_Polish @ 2.72
16 60% Italian_Abruzzo + 40% Estonian_Polish @ 2.72
17 89% Serbian + 11% Samaritan @ 2.74
18 89.2% Serbian + 10.8% Armenian @ 2.78
19 88.8% Serbian + 11.2% Palestinian @ 2.78
20 90.6% Bulgarian + 9.4% La_Brana-1 @ 2.82
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 16.64
2 North_Sea 16.13
3 East_Med 15.76
4 Atlantic 13.9
5 West_Asian 11.86
6 Eastern_Euro 10.63
7 West_Med 10
8 Red_Sea 3.14
9 Oceanian 1.55
10 South_Asian 0.27
11 Southeast_Asian 0.13
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 3.91
2 Bulgarian 5.23
3 Serbian 6.53
4 Moldavian 9.9
5 Greek_Thessaly 11.36
6 Croatian 12.13
7 Hungarian 12.44
8 Greek 12.51
9 Austrian 12.96
10 Tuscan 16.05
11 Italian_Abruzzo 16.18
12 Ashkenazi 16.29
13 Central_Greek 16.8
14 East_German 17.08
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 17.34
16 North_Italian 17.46
17 East_Sicilian 17.79
18 South_Polish 18.06
19 West_Sicilian 18.37
20 Ukrainian 18.52
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.2% Central_Greek + 39.8% Estonian @ 2.92
2 75.7% Croatian + 24.3% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.98
3 72.5% Croatian + 27.5% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.02
4 51.9% Central_Greek + 48.1% South_Polish @ 3.09
5 74.4% Croatian + 25.6% Assyrian @ 3.15
6 55.8% Central_Greek + 44.2% Southwest_Russian @ 3.16
7 50.8% Central_Greek + 49.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.17
8 55% Central_Greek + 45% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.21
9 75.8% Croatian + 24.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.32
10 76.8% Moldavian + 23.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.33
11 56% Italian_Abruzzo + 44% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.33
12 75.8% Croatian + 24.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.34
13 98.4% Romanian + 1.6% Papuan @ 3.34
14 79.7% Moldavian + 20.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.36
15 62.7% South_Polish + 37.3% Cyprian @ 3.38
16 98.1% Romanian + 1.9% NAN_Melanesian @ 3.39
17 55.4% Central_Greek + 44.6% Polish @ 3.41
18 75.5% Croatian + 24.5% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.42
19 52.5% Central_Greek + 47.5% Ukrainian @ 3.44
20 56.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 43.2% Southwest_Russian @ 3.46
Dodecad K12b Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 33.61
2 Atlantic_Med 25.17
3 Caucasus 24.76
4 Southwest_Asian 8.15
5 Gedrosia 5.91
6 Southeast_Asian 1.25
7 Siberian 0.78
8 South_Asian 0.36
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanians (Behar) 5.51
2 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 6.02
3 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 7.3
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 31.2% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.73
Nah, I think it's just an unbalanced proportion between North Atlantic and Baltic that is being produced by K13. I didn't notice the same on K36 for example. My mom experiences the same with her original unimputed data.
Mama_OG,19.44,37.30,15.60,10.04,13.19,0.47,0.95,1. 49,0.28,0.41,0.82,0,0
Interesting tsne from Ph2ter
https://i.imgur.com/Rbo3l3r.png
Transylvania means Hungarians from Transylvania btw. He made this to show how Hungarian regions cluster on such plot.
Hehehe, love how I split from the Romanian cluster in that one.
Bosniak with surname Tanović. Probably from East Herzegovina (Tanović is common Bosniak surname from Gacko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacko).
He is super mongoloid for South Slavic standards.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/at...0&d=1602775420
Interesting. His Mongoloid according to Dodecad. That may be Turkish ancestry of some sort. I wonder what he scores on Ancestry DNA (his testing company)
Gedrosia 3.80 Pct
Siberian 1.16 Pct
Northwest_African 0.95 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.41 Pct
Atlantic_Med 25.56 Pct
North_European 40.71 Pct
South_Asian 0.56 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 3.95 Pct
East_Asian 0.81 Pct
Caucasus 22.10 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Distance to: Tanović
2.65198039 MD_Center
2.86876280 MD_North
3.00099983 Serb
3.48071832 Bosnian
4.62586208 Croat
4.91216856 HUN_Szekely
6.07415838 Montenegrin
7.59622933 Romanian
8.01894008 Macedonian
8.55479398 Pomak
Target: Tanović
Distance: 1.7672% / 1.76720973 | ADC: 0.5x
43.0 MD_North
31.0 MD_Center
26.0 Serb
Target: Tanović
Distance: 1.5339% / 1.53391798 | ADC: 0.25x
72.0 MD_North
21.2 Serb
6.0 Albanian_North
0.8 Georgian_Mingrelian
Without Moldova
Target: Tanović
Distance: 1.8814% / 1.88139465 | ADC: 0.25x
51.8 Bosnian
44.6 Serb
3.6 Nogai
Double
Bosniak Sandžak-Novi Pazar and Sjenica
Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 26
2 Baltic 24.89
3 West_Med 19.84
4 East_Med 17
5 West_Asian 7.93
6 Red_Sea 2.96
7 South_Asian 1.39
8 Siberian 0.01
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.46
2 Serbian 4.88
3 Bulgarian 6.27
4 Moldavian 10.95
5 Hungarian 12.15
6 Greek_Thessaly 12.57
7 Croatian 12.96
8 North_Italian 13.82
9 Austrian 13.97
10 Tuscan 15.27
11 East_German 15.78
12 French 17.02
13 West_German 17.48
14 Portuguese 17.87
15 Spanish_Galicia 18.12
16 Italian_Abruzzo 18.43
17 South_Dutch 18.77
18 Spanish_Extremadura 19.09
19 Spanish_Cataluna 19.14
20 West_Sicilian 19.28
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.9% Serbian + 11.1% Sardinian @ 1.75
2 54.2% Croatian + 45.8% Tuscan @ 2.03
3 57.8% Tuscan + 42.2% Ukrainian @ 2.18
4 63.1% Tuscan + 36.9% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.34
5 56.3% Tuscan + 43.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.36
6 63.5% Tuscan + 36.5% Estonian_Polish @ 2.42
7 67.6% Tuscan + 32.4% Lithuanian @ 2.43
8 62.1% Tuscan + 37.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.52
9 61.7% Tuscan + 38.3% Southwest_Russian @ 2.52
10 58.6% Moldavian + 41.4% Tuscan @ 2.53
11 60.1% Croatian + 39.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.72
12 55.9% Greek_Thessaly + 44.1% East_German @ 2.83
13 61% Tuscan + 39% Polish @ 2.88
14 64.1% Tuscan + 35.9% Belorussian @ 2.92
15 55.1% West_Sicilian + 44.9% Polish @ 2.98
16 78% Serbian + 22% North_Italian @ 3.06
17 87.1% Romanian + 12.9% Southwest_French @ 3.08
18 51% West_Sicilian + 49% South_Polish @ 3.08
19 51.9% West_Sicilian + 48.1% Ukrainian @ 3.08
20 57% Tuscan + 43% South_Polish @ 3.11
I have idea about y dna of Tanović Bosniaks from Gacko.
Large part of muslims of Gacko area are descendants ot muslims settlers from Herceg Novi (coastal Montenegro) in 1687. In 1687 Venetians took Herceg Novi from Ottomans with the help of Montenegrin and Herzegovinian Serbs, and muslims moved mostly to Gacko and some on few other locations in Herzegovina. On October 27, 1538 Spaniards lead by Andrea Doria took Herceg Novi from Ottomans and held city until August 10, 1539. In August 1539 Ottomans attacked Herceg Novi from land and sea with huge army, lead by Rumeli beylerbey Husref, Bosnian sanjak-bey and Hayreddin Barbarossa. Ottomans defeated Spaniards and returned Herceg Novi. Only about 50 Spaniards survived the battle. Ottomans were amazed by heroism of Spaniards and spaired their lives and allowed them to stay in city if they want. Maybe some Spaniard stayed and converted on Islam and beause of that Tanovići carry "Sardinian" I2a (they ariived in Gacko in 1687 from Herceg Novi).
Is he? My father's values
North_Atlantic 28.42 Pct
Baltic 31.99 Pct
West_Med 15.48 Pct
West_Asian 8.37 Pct
East_Med 12.10 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.59 Pct
Siberian 0.53 Pct
Amerindian 1.00 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.37 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.16 Pct
I2-Z113 is extremly rare in the Balkans.
One Serb from Kosovo carry this y dna, he is probably descendant of Catalan mercenaries who served to Serbian rulers from Nemanjić dynasty in 14th century. I see Spaniards here with this Serb https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z113/
Well, I don't know if it's always more precise, I'm just more used to it. It has three Mongoloid components and lacks the Amerindian which is not needed in Eurasia at all (for those with real Amerindian ancestry Dodecad World9 will be more suitable). I guess some of the Amerindian goes into North European while the rest to Siberian. Who knows. Nothing is 100% accurate anyway.
See this Mexican for example (sorry for being off-topic)
Spoiler!
Does somebody have Bosniak sample from Stolac (Herzegovina)?
Ali Pasha Rizvanbegović had a harem with plenty Georgian women which he buyed in Istanbul. He considered Georgian women for the most beautiful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_Rizvanbegović
Is this Milenko not the eponymous TA user? :)
Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 30.76
2 North_Atlantic 22.32
3 East_Med 17.75
4 West_Med 15.57
5 West_Asian 9.33
6 Red_Sea 1.76
7 Siberian 1.54
8 East_Asian 0.34
9 Oceanian 0.32
10 South_Asian 0.31
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 5.57
2 Romanian 6.32
3 Bulgarian 7.13
4 Moldavian 7.14
5 Croatian 9.79
6 Hungarian 11.37
7 Austrian 15.48
8 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.64
9 Greek_Thessaly 15.71
10 South_Polish 16.54
11 East_German 16.64
12 Ukrainian 16.7
13 Southwest_Russian 19.22
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 19.58
15 Polish 19.97
16 North_Italian 20.94
17 West_German 21.22
18 Tuscan 21.27
19 Russian_Smolensk 21.49
20 Tatar 21.65
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.1% Greek_Thessaly + 44.9% Southwest_Russian @ 1.78
2 73.6% Bulgarian + 26.4% Southwest_Russian @ 1.99
3 76.1% Bulgarian + 23.9% Estonian_Polish @ 2.02
4 76.6% Bulgarian + 23.4% Belorussian @ 2.04
5 50.9% Estonian_Polish + 49.1% Central_Greek @ 2.1
6 58.5% Southwest_Russian + 41.5% South_Italian @ 2.14
7 79.8% Bulgarian + 20.2% Lithuanian @ 2.18
8 58.9% Greek_Thessaly + 41.1% Belorussian @ 2.25
9 58.3% Greek_Thessaly + 41.7% Estonian_Polish @ 2.27
10 50.2% Belorussian + 49.8% Central_Greek @ 2.27
11 63.4% Greek_Thessaly + 36.6% Lithuanian @ 2.29
12 54.1% Southwest_Russian + 45.9% Central_Greek @ 2.29
13 55.4% Estonian_Polish + 44.6% South_Italian @ 2.3
14 59.7% Ukrainian + 40.3% Ashkenazi @ 2.31
15 55.6% Greek_Thessaly + 44.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.32
16 76% Bulgarian + 24% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.34
17 54.4% Central_Greek + 45.6% Lithuanian @ 2.35
18 50.1% Lithuanian + 49.9% South_Italian @ 2.38
19 78.2% Bulgarian + 21.8% Erzya @ 2.39
20 77.5% Bulgarian + 22.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.42
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 18.54
2 Baltic 17.8
3 East_Med 15.43
4 Eastern_Euro 14.04
5 Atlantic 12.4
6 West_Med 11.85
7 West_Asian 7.68
8 Red_Sea 1.47
9 Siberian 0.69
10 Oceanian 0.1
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 5.79
2 Romanian 6.45
3 Moldavian 7.69
4 Bulgarian 8.18
5 Croatian 10.15
6 Hungarian 10.15
7 Austrian 12.09
8 Greek_Thessaly 13.52
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.7
10 Greek 15.18
11 East_German 15.23
12 Ukrainian 15.41
13 South_Polish 15.56
14 Polish 18.15
15 Tuscan 18.19
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 18.28
17 North_Italian 18.42
18 Russian_Smolensk 18.68
19 Southwest_Russian 18.72
20 Ashkenazi 19.18
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.9% Ukrainian + 36.1% Italian_Jewish @ 3.38
2 62.8% Greek_Thessaly + 37.2% Estonian @ 3.46
3 56.8% Ukrainian + 43.2% Central_Greek @ 3.59
4 53.5% Greek_Thessaly + 46.5% Ukrainian @ 3.63
5 61.1% Greek_Thessaly + 38.9% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.68
6 58.5% Greek_Thessaly + 41.5% Southwest_Russian @ 3.71
7 60.9% Ukrainian + 39.1% South_Italian @ 3.75
8 68.7% Ukrainian + 31.3% Cyprian @ 3.76
9 65% Ukrainian + 35% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.81
10 55.7% Ukrainian + 44.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.82
11 57.8% Greek_Thessaly + 42.2% Polish @ 3.94
12 52.8% Central_Greek + 47.2% Estonian @ 3.94
13 85.6% Moldavian + 14.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.97
14 58% Ukrainian + 42% East_Sicilian @ 3.97
15 53.8% Greek_Thessaly + 46.2% South_Polish @ 4.03
16 82.5% Moldavian + 17.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.03
17 61.7% Greek_Thessaly + 38.3% East_Finnish @ 4.05
18 64.9% Ukrainian + 35.1% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.07
19 80.3% Moldavian + 19.7% Italian_Jewish @ 4.1
20 58% Greek_Thessaly + 42% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.1
MDLP K23b Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 34.57
2 Caucasian 34.37
3 European_Early_Farmers 14.63
4 Near_East 4.72
5 South_Central_Asian 3.76
6 Ancestral_Altaic 2.46
7 North_African 1.98
8 Amerindian 1.19
9 South_Indian 0.78
10 Tungus-Altaic 0.55
11 African_Pygmy 0.32
12 Paleo_Siberian 0.3
13 Austronesian 0.18
14 South_East_Asian 0.17
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Croat_BH ( ) 3.54
2 Bosnian ( ) 3.86
3 Serb_BH ( ) 4.39
4 Croat ( ) 4.56
5 Macedonian ( ) 5.34
6 Montenegrian ( ) 5.36
7 Bulgarian ( ) 5.71
8 Serb_Serbia ( ) 7.02
9 Romanian ( ) 7.69
10 Gagauz ( ) 9.97
11 Turk_Balikesir ( ) 10
12 Hungarian_Budapest ( ) 10
13 Ukrainian_West ( ) 10.05
14 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain ( ) 10.09
15 Czech ( ) 10.89
16 Slovenian ( ) 11.15
17 Ukrainian_Center ( ) 11.19
18 Slovak ( ) 11.31
19 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 11.44
20 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 11.53
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.5% Russian-West ( ) + 48.5% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.32
2 52.7% Greek ( ) + 47.3% Russian-North-West ( ) @ 1.34
3 50% Russian_South ( ) + 50% Central_Greek ( ) @ 1.39
4 50.7% Greek ( ) + 49.3% Russian-West ( ) @ 1.41
5 50.6% Greek_Athens ( ) + 49.4% Russian-North-West ( ) @ 1.43
6 51.3% Greek_Athens ( ) + 48.7% Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) @ 1.48
7 59.9% Central_Greek ( ) + 40.1% Latvian ( ) @ 1.5
8 60.3% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 39.7% Greek ( ) @ 1.5
9 53.1% Kashub ( ) + 46.9% Greek_Macedonia ( ) @ 1.51
10 56.9% Greek_Athens ( ) + 43.1% Estonian ( ) @ 1.53
11 62.3% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 37.7% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.56
12 88.2% Bosnian ( ) + 11.8% Uzbekistani_Jew ( ) @ 1.57
13 87% Bosnian ( ) + 13% Georgian_Jew ( ) @ 1.57
14 53.2% Russian-West ( ) + 46.8% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.57
15 67.4% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 32.6% Greek_Islands ( ) @ 1.58
16 51.1% Belarusian-East ( ) + 48.9% Central_Greek ( ) @ 1.58
17 85.3% Croat_BH ( ) + 14.7% Turk_Adana ( ) @ 1.59
18 88.1% Croat_BH ( ) + 11.9% Iraqi_Chaldean ( ) @ 1.59
19 55.4% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 44.6% Central_Greek ( ) @ 1.6
20 53.4% Greek_Athens ( ) + 46.6% Balt ( ) @ 1.6