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True but Ghegs usually got wives from different Albanian clans or villages. Also Ghegs are considered more homogenous than Tosks but I think that we are equally as homogenous as each other but Ghegs for a fact were isolated moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Drawing-slim
That can be applied to the I2a1b-"Dins" arriving in scores to the Balkans.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
I'm far from a haplogroup supremacist, the other thread was simply trollish about J2b2. Not sure how some people take obvious troll threads so seriously.
None or insignificant amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujku
I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhak Bauėr
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".
The Slavs were numerous enough in foraging population when they migrated to cause a significant impact and change in demographics, I2a1b-din and R1a combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
The Roman northern military frontiers have long since been breached by Hunic and Avar raids. Avars brought numerous of Slavs with them taking advantage of this.
http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/BalkanSlavs.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_p45f_p1oLm...he_Balkans.JPG
Because you seem to have the winning combination of delusional coping mechanism + poor reading and cognitive comprehension, so it is pointless to explain to you the concept of "sample". Can you please give a reason why it is impossible that an Albanian may not have some Slavonic component? Is the power of your national myth so potent you are incapable of accepting evidence even slightly to the contrary? Or are you some kind of imbecile who believes some kind of genetic alchemy- Slavic dna and Albanian are somehow repellent to one another? Western-backed Stooge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
That is a good point, but I think many Tosks were more "cosmopolitan" and therefore intermarried with Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians more often. At least with Tsams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawing-slim
To be honest, look at Greeks, they are the same. The unbelievable stubborn stupidity of Catgeorge for instance. We must be the same people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawing-slim
Do you understand that this map is totally an idiot map? In VII-VIII century North Albania and Kosova servi?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhak Bauėr
Practically nothing was known about the Serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).
Begone, witless worm , and hear the truth that shall set you free at last:Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
Quote:
It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. [6] This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. [7]
By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]
What had happened to the local populations of the western and central Balkans during and after the Slav invasions? Something is known about the urban inhabitants, but much less about the people in the countryside. Despite the apocalyptic tone of early Byzantine writers, who give the impression that all civilization came to an end here in about 600, there is good evidence that the main cities survived (or were revived), just as they had done after earlier sackings. Refugees from central Balkan towns such as Nis and Sofia fled to the safety of Salonica at first, but many must have gone back home later. [10] The main towns on the Dalmatian and northern Albanian coastline, too, retained their Latin-speaking populations and stayed under Byzantine rule. (For naval and commercial reasons, Durres was the most important Byzantine possession on the entire Adriatic coast of the Balkans.) [11] But outside the major cities there are signs of decline and contraction; typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existenc
Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)
Not really , Chams married other chams .. My grandpa a cham has the typical Albanian ( more gheg) look (tall , dinaric nose , slim ) like most chams i've met in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
My Lab grandfather was Isa Boletinis look alike .
This whole Tosk Albanians look differently than Ghegs is total bullshit..
Also we didn't marry with Greeks of south Albania (which were mainly Hellenised Vlachs ) although we lived together we only married other Albanians same goes for ghegs.
This is not about looks at all, so there is no reason to go there. I don't know what your oral tradition is about this, but i respect it, even if I am skeptical. I don't have time to go into it deeply, but I did recall enough to retrieve this quote about Northwest Greece and South Albania:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujku
Quote:
Hellenizing (male) Vlachs, for example, tended to marry hellenized (female) Vlachs or poor Greekbrides, thus establishing the domestic language as Greek. Muslim Albanians might take Greek wives,
maintaining some features of a bicultural household at least in the first generation. Greek men might inprinciple marry only other Orthodox. Contemporary observers insist that linguistically distinct groups, while
distinguished on the plane of language or occupation, might also share much in style of life: "The Greek,Slav, Roumanian, Albanian of the Mountains resemble one another more than they do their compatriots of the plains" (Ancel 1926:135, quoted in Recatas 1934:2). Likewise, the Greek tenant farmer who was not a merchant (and not, according to Hobhouse, "dressed as a European" [1971:28]) resembled his Bulgar counterparts in his poverty and subjection to the Turk. Kitroeff (1993:13) cites Margaritis Dhimitsas's four volume Ancient Geography of Macedonia (1874): "The Slavo-Bulgarians stand on the bottom rung of intellectual development, and are almost exclusively engaged in agriculture and cattle-raising.... Among
[the Slavs] the Serbs are noted for their care over intellectual and political development and the Montenegrins for their heroism."
and that:
Quote:
Observers writing during the Ottoman period recognized something like a linguisticallycoded caste structure with hereditary specializations. "The merchant," one source reported, "is a 'Greek', the intellectual a 'Serb', ... the shepherd a 'Vlach', the laborer a 'Bulgar' " (Recatas 1934:14).13 The blacksmiths and music-makers (for example, those who lived outside the Aromanian town of Metsovo) were by definition Gypsies.14 Note that it is the merchant who is a Greek and not the Greek who is, inevitably, a merchant. While linguistic or ethnic categories constituted the indices of a division of labor, individuals might migrate into these categories from diverse points of origin. For their own reproduction, linguistic and regional differences require some degree of in-marriage, but in northwest Greece there was also a good deal of systematic out-marriage (systematic in the sense that certain patterns of status migration were maintained).15
Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999)
And we all know that Muslim(Albanian, Turkish, or Greek) males could and did intermarry with whoever they pleased, as a general rule- in Epirus as elsewhere.
I2a1b is very small - Balkan slavs are mostly slavicised indigenous Balkanites. It was a huge push westwards on Scythians, Ostrogoths and Alans by Huns. We are talking about 100 AD - all these communities intermingled....indigenous I2, Scythians , Ostrogoths , Alans, Cumans and Avars over half a millenia of morphing before their migration southwards in 6th century AD.. all these communities developed their own tribes eventually. As an example look at America and its morph...they all spoke a loose Germanic language but English became the language.. this is not so much different... they are slavicised like americans are angliczedQuote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
Take Bulgrians for example that did not speak Slavic when they first arrived to the Balkans. R1a and R1b is more Asiatic than I and J.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catgeorge
That is some pretty slick attempt at turning a hellenized-bulgar into a slavified-greek, and you aint fooling anyone, Asen.
Did you just reply to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
I wonder why - have I hurt your feelings have I?.... here have a cookie. Now now. :patpat:
:laugh:
:clap::clap: Sorcelow :clap::clap:
With this thread you managed, not only the common Greeks vs Albanians, but also Greeks vs Greeks and Albanians vs Albanians :laugh:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
Where are the servs among the nations? I don't see.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1332_...age/index.html
Here you have the ethnic composition of Kingdom of servia.
All this are primary sources. OK?
To prove that your post is the biggest BS, i will ask you to quote the name of only one single serv intellectual, in the period described by this author.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
lol toxic rat, did a different opinion from your national myth dismay ya? youre a big boy, you can handle that someone somewhere said something positive about a serb and didn't find the need to even mention an albanian. It isn't the end of the world. Oh, and mention of Serbs predates mention of Albanians, Arvanites, Arnauts, Arvanon, Arbereshe, Raban, Laban, etc. and so on...They are mentioned in Constantine's Administrisio di imperio, which I'd post, but you'll just ignore. You can just call them Slavs, if you prefer. Slavs were in Kosovo and North Albania in the 7th Century. Those Slavs, if they weren't already, would become Serbs. (and presumably, some of em would be come Albanians)Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
I don't see how a fragment of a source from the 11th century is a primary source for the 7th century. Do you understand what primary means? It means contermpoary, and we have very very few of them.
"This one disputed text from the 11th century doesn't mention Serbs at all, therefore Serbs didn't exist during the 11th century."
The Serb and Greek e-historians who claim that Albanians didn't exist until the first documentation of Albanians are just one side of the coin of Balkan stupidity. It is never about a fair-minded dialectic towards truth, it's nothing but a manifestation of id through pseudo-intellectual shitflinging.
I doubt it - Albanians existed as people most likely but certainly not under Albanians but something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Abubu
Welcome to the world of I 20,000 years ago in Gravvetian culture of upper paleolithic
Ancestor: IJ
Descendants: I*, I1, I2
Mutations: L41, M170, M258, P19, P38, P212, U179
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ope20000ya.png
Cro Magnon expansion of 40,000 years ago
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._migration.gif
I bet my last penny Dorians were I + R1b
Sorry, but my question has nothing to do with your answer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
troll game is weak, laberia. step it up. Im not even provoked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
There is nothing troll game. Was you who posted this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
My question was and is simple. Can you tell me a serv intellectual from the period described by this author?Quote:
Observers writing during the Ottoman period recognized something like a linguisticallycoded caste structure with hereditary specializations. "The merchant," one source reported, "is a 'Greek', the intellectual a 'Serb', ... the shepherd a 'Vlach', the laborer a 'Bulgar' " (Recatas 1934:14).
What is troll game here?
I thought my first post would make it clear that this is not the case. All indications are that the Slav element in southern Albania is pretty much exclusively derived from the first waves of undifferentiated Slavs that swept the Balkans. Therefore the Slavic element belongs to the typically Slavic ydna markers and the proportions of Slav blood should be looked at from that perspective, as would be the case in Bulgaria or with Macedonians for example. The Bulgarian and Serb empires only held a few forts there for a certian amount of time, no indications that they settled the area with Slav-mixed EV13s and R1bs from Bulgaria and Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Abubu
I am sorry, I just assumed that you were trolling, not that you were an actual moron. My apologies. Is it possible that something here can be posted and you actually understand it for once?Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
Can your pea-sized brain do anything except see the passage as a competition with Serbs? The point is not that Serbs were *actually* intellectuals, but that the in the Balkan cultural taxonomy, the Serb was an intellectual (i.e. all intellectuals were Serbs) all merchants were Greeks, all shepherds were Vlachs, etc. This is of course not my original assertion, but the one made in the cited peer-reviewed article by an American historian, so you shall have to take it up with her, my dear Mardaite.
Maybe the first wave of Slavs but certainly not the proto Serbs and Proto Croats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
There's no difference between those two things as far as I can tell. Proto-Slavs became Serbs and Croats.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceT
So, in your Balcan Taxonomy, servs were intellectuals but you can't tell me a serv intellectual. I like when you play with your tongue. Let me help you with the example of an great serv intellectual:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sali_Aga
EDIT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
I don't see the passage as a competition with servs. I consider this an classic example of what i have always supported here. You are a troll. The only thing that you are able to do is searching in internet and without reading posting here. This is what i call davai style. When people start to rise logic questions, you behave as a schizophrenic.
About the author, internet is full with every kind of "authors". Can you tell us, this idea of serv intellectual, is a personal impression of this author or he have read it somewhere?
Administrando d'Impero is not the only sources. There are sources even older then Administrando where Albanians are mentioned:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post3968832
It's your Hammond.
In the text of 11 century are mentioned all the know nations, not servs.
imbecilic twat- why you wasting my time with all this unrelated tangent shit? this is about I2b and slav invasions concerning albania and north greece, not some splitting hairs about what is a Serb. And geezus christ, how much free time you have to just triple post? I didn't even read 2/3 of them. Go make a history club with CatGeorge, Hellenas, and Raine.
Let see who is troll here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
First, using and abusing with this poor retard Sorcelow you started this thread: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania
At the beggining was another member who noticed that your initiative was stupid:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Europa Nazione
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
Later, to prove your theory you posted this study:Quote:
Originally Posted by Europa Nazione
But you failed to tell us according to this study how percent of this 104 Tosk Albanians were I2a1b. It`s really funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
So, your attempt to enter into a genetic disussion, failed miserably.
What remained was the historical discussion.
Here, you are an expert troll.
You have repeatedly ignored my invitation to present your theory, when it relates to the Albanians, and specifically in regards to Tosk Albanians. It`s you "tactic", if we can call in this way. And here is difficult to beat you, Mark Twain explain very well the reason:
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
But it`s time to give an end to your stupidity. You have an theory Scholarios and this your "theory" can be reconstructed reading your posts in this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Laberia
The bird start to sing. Nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
When you have elaborated this fact? I have explained very well that Albanians are native in Epir, i.e. South Albania with this post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4173569
Your answer, or as you call it as elaborated previously, was this:
Very elaborate answer, typical for a greek nationalist.Twain was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
Well done. I think we can reconstruct you theory now. But we want a map first to explain to the rest of the people your theory:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
This is a map of the dialects of Albanian language:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/imagecgi.jpg
The theory of Scholarios is that all Tosks being newcomers from North. A theory, product of greek chauvinism in order to justify the occupation of part of Epir, i.e. South Albania, and intentions of Greece to occupy the other half. It`s called, Megaliidea.
This newcomers from the North, found Slavic sea in Epir, i.e. South Albania. This newcomers(Tosk), Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat.
If you look at the Dialectological map of Albania, following the theory of Scholarios, this newcomers were arrived at the number 6 in the map. Berat is a little bit in the left of number 6. The rest, continue to be a Slavic sea,number 7, Labs and number 8 Chams, always according to the theory of Scholarios, Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups. When? He don`t tell us, but we have to assume, following Scholarios, at least in the XIV century or latter.
I invite you to notice the island of Corfu at the bottom of the map, because is very important.
This was the reconstruction of the theory of Scholarios.
What is the truth. Ok. let`s quote a greek author, Kostas Giakoumis:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...of_Gjirokaster
I don`t share his point of view, but opinions are one things and facts and documents another thing. I am quoting this greek scholar:
The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning
of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources:
the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent
facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;(20) and the second
is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a
certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of
the famous Shpata family.(21) Furthermore, I suggest that names that
appear in two acts of the Angevins of Naples dated 1304 (22) using the
forms, Albos, Spatos, Catarucos, Bischesini, Aranitos, Lecenis,
Turbaceos, Marchaseos, Scuras, Zeneuias, Bucceseos, Logoresc and
Mateseos are either well-known, less-known or totally unknown names
of Albanian clan leaders at that time.
(20.) G. Tafel - G. Tomas (1856), 122.
(21). N. Bees - E. Seferli, 'Unedierte Schriftstiicke aus der Kanzlei des Johannes
Apokaukos', BN] 21 (1974), doc. 62. For views on this name as being ancestral to
the name 'Shpata', see P. Xhufi (1994), 47 and note 132.
(22). L. Thalloczy - K. Jirecek - M. Sufflay (1913), 166a, doc. 563 and 167-168,
doc. 569.
According to Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus
Ἤπειρος, Ḗpeiros (Doric: Ἄπειρος, Įpeiros), meaning "mainland" or terra firma.[3] It is thought to come from an Indo-European root *apero- 'coast',[4] and was originally applied to the mainland opposite Corfu and the Ionian islands.[5]
So according to Venetians in year 1210, so not centuries later but at the beginning of the XIII century the continent facing the island of Corfu, la terra firma was inhabited by Albanians. I don`t see a slavic sea, i don`t see greeks in Epir, i don`t see vlacs, only Albanias. And when you are in Corfu and you look in the east, you see at your left number 7, Laberia and to your right number 8 Chameria. This is what also saw this Venetian official, when he prepared this document. And this albanians did not arrived during the night in year 1210. This Albanians were there, because the Albanians are autochthonous in Epirus or South Albania.
The mystery of the "birds and the bees", resolved
Pseudohistory and greek chauvinism debunked.
Troll busted.
There was already a Serbian state in the Balkans, Rascia, since the beginning of 7th century, and Serbs and Croats were known as such even before they came to the Balkans. The only question is whether there wasn't also a presence of Bulgarian Slavs or not at this point, as there was later on, and which is seen in the intermediate Bulgarian-Serb Torlak dialect, and the fact that much of the toponymy we Albanians inherited from Slavs in Kosovo follows Bulgarian and not Serbian phonetic rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceT
The first Bulgarian Empire lasted for 100 years. Simeon I of Bulgaria was referred to as half Greek. Battle of Kleidion in 1018 crippled them. They were crushed Samuel was killed - 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers were captured and their eyes were taken out and sent back. The Bulgarians were then expelled from Byzantine provinces. Bulgarians were also crushed in Dyrrhachium in were Bulgarians became subjagated. 2nd Bulgarian empire lasted for 60 years and was annhialted.
There are no 'Bulgarian Slavs' in this case. Bulgarian is just a Turkic identity that went on to become a political entity. Really the only difference is the Balkan Slavs (part of the Balkan sprachsbound or whatever it's called) and the Dinaric Slavs which are the Serbs and Croats. The Balkan Slavs have become synonymous with Bulgarians since the Bulgars ruled the larger mass of them and their descendants today are mainly the Bulgarians and Macedonians, and they are linguistically tied. Serbs intruded into Kosovo and other areas and brought the Slavs of those areas into their political and then ethnic fold without stripping away many of their older features. So we can say the Slavs of southern Albania predated 'Bulgarians' but were most similar to what we think were 'Bulgarian Slavs'. To say they were simply Bulgarians is wrong as that term is politically and historicaly loaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Abubu
ss
How common is slavic Y-DNA in Albanian lands?
No I don't mean anything that can be more linked to slavs in the balkans but is native or whatever. I mean actually traced back as slavic, from slavs- Poland, Ukraine etc.
I2a1b(Dinaric) is a Slavic marker not native and it is found in Albania at about 10% or less depending on region, it is lower in frequencies in the north than in the south which has a higher amount of I2a1bQuote:
Originally Posted by Albobalboa
Also R1a which is Slavic or Germanic depending on clusters or subclades is found at about 9% or less in Albania although most of these are probably Slavic clusters
So 20% Y-DNA in Albania is "foreign" from the balkans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group
All there
In a few years, as genetic tests become more refined and widespread, they will start to have a larger effect on identity. So basically the storm will wipe out 20% or so of Albanians, that's not too bad.
Edit: I don't know jack shit about genetics, I'm just interested in getting to some sort of core to that shit. In the end all is foreign bla bla. But I want to pinpoint it somehow. Anything but slavic y-dna is fine by me. Anything spread by slavs is cancer to my cells. It is slavsquat kompot and lacks besa.