Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albobalboa

So 20% Y-DNA in Albania is "foreign" from the balkans?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group

All there

---

Tbh it depends on cluster as you can have clusters of I2a that are native and the I2a category doesn't explicitly say I2a-Din meaning that some of it is Native it also depends on regions.. Anyways haplogroups don't determine what ethnicity you are, you can be I2a-din but still be 100% Albanian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Tbh it depends on cluster as you can have clusters of I2a that are native and the I2a category doesn't explicitly say I2a-Din meaning that some of it is Native it also depends on regions.. Anyways haplogroups don't determine what ethnicity you are, you can be I2a-din but still be 100% Albanian

---

So what is it that determines ones ethnicity? Is there even a test that can determine it? How large % of Albanians would you estimate to be paternally Slav descendent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albobalboa

So what is it that determines ones ethnicity? Is there even a test that can determine it? How large % of Albanians would you estimate to be paternally Slav descendent?

---

Autosomal will determine your ethnic make up. Drawing Slim which is I2a1b(Slavic marker) scores typical Albanian results on autosomal to the point that he get's 100% Balkan on DNA land as haplogroups are too distant to effect your ethnic or genetic makeup. I would recommend Living DNA for Albanians as they break down Albania and the Balkans into 3 categories, "Agean" which includes most of Greece most of Albania, "West Balkans" which includes some of Northwest Albania and most of western Balkans and Eastern Balkans which includes some of North-Eastern Albania, Kosova and other Eastern Balkan countries. Living dna also give detailed Ydna and Mtdna analysis

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Autosomal will determine your ethnic make up. Drawing Slim which is I2a1b(Slavic marker) scores typical Albanian results on autosomal to the point that he get's 100% Balkan on DNA land as haplogroups are too distant to effect your ethnic or genetic makeup. I would recommend Living DNA for Albanians as they break down Albania and the Balkans into 3 categories, "Agean" which includes most of Greece most of Albania, "West Balkans" which includes some of Northwest Albania and most of western Balkans and Eastern Balkans which includes some of North-Eastern Albania, Kosova and other Eastern Balkan countries. Living dna also give detailed Ydna and Mtdna analysis

---

Alright, feels like there's too many factors that play into this for me to even try to "get it". Not curious enough to pay £159 for a genetic test either at this point in my life.

"Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few rigid genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques, Finns and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that both Albanians from Albania and Kosovo derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous, as they share a significant amount of descent with nearby Macedonian, Greek and Italian populations. The recent growth is particularly evident in Kosovar Albanians, which show particularly high levels of homogeneity, in contrast to the higher diversity otherwise found in other Balkan populations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

MUH PURITY

This is why I say that it depends on region as Tosks have a far higher amount of I when compared to Ghegs although this is I in general which means that it could be I1(Norse/Gothic), I2a2(Germanic) etc not necessarily I2a1b
https://s1.postimg.org/c4pdo5gin/albanians.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

It was in the Balkans even before the arrival of Slavic speakers. It is native.

---

Well, I guess that idea has finally been put to rest.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201....full.pdf+html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

Well, I guess that idea has finally been put to rest.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201....full.pdf+html

---

I2a1 is not Slavic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

I2a1 is not Slavic.

---

well it doesn't appear in any pre-slavic balkan remains, that's for sure. some e1b, r1b, and sardinian type i2a. No Dinaric tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

well it doesn't appear in any pre-slavic balkan remains, that's for sure. some e1b, r1b, and sardinian type i2a. No Dinaric tho.

---

Have all ancient remains been found and DNA tested?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

Have all ancient remains been found and DNA tested?

---

and all ancient remains will never be tested. but that is a "god of the gaps" type argument tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dick

I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs.

---

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time. Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

I2a1 is not Slavic.

---

Loki, why do you keep repeating this? just curious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time. Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

---

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

Only CTS10228 is "Slavic" - I2a1 is definitely not SLavic neither is I2a-Din

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catgeorge

Only CTS10228 is "Slavic" - I2a1 is definitely not SLavic neither is I2a-Din

---

Ok but all them ancient remains and no I2 Dinaric.

All proof points to its Slavic . Only nationalism points to its not. Ad Nauseum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

Ok but all them ancient remains and no I2 Dinaric.

All proof points to its Slavic . Only nationalism points to its not. Ad Nauseum

---

But it doesnt make sense majority of subclades of I2a1 P37.2 is found in west Europe not east Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

---

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

---

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, it seems to be a Iranic/Sarmatian clade which is not present in the Balkans today (outside of Roma populations maybe?).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, it seems to be a Iranic/Sarmatian clade which is not present in the Balkans today (outside of Roma populations maybe?).

---

True but iirc it was found in Corded Ware Germany too. It could have already been in the Balkans back then, its frequency around here is still quite low anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ylla

Loki, why do you keep repeating this? just curious

---

Because I believe it, I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scholarios

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

---

Απ'όσο θυμάμαι όχι ακριβώς όταν πέρασαν το Δούναβη αλλά ναι, σε επαφή με το Βυζάντιο κατά τις Ρωμαϊκές λίμες στο Δούναβη. Βέβαια ο Curta μιλούσε για εθνογένεση με την έννοια του "οι άνθρωποι που εμφανίζονται συγκεκριμένα ως 'Σ(κ)λάβ(ην)οι' στις πηγές μας, ο υλικός πολιτισμός τους κλπ" και όχι "τα γονίδια των ομιλητών της πρώιμης Σλαβικής κατά την επέκταση τους" ή "οι άνθρωποι της γλωσσικά Σλαβικής urheimat". Είναι κάπως παρεξηγημένο έργο γι'αυτούς ακριβώς τους λόγους (πόσο μάλλον σε φόρα τύπου apricity lol). Δεν εννοώς πως κάνεις κάτι τέτοιο εσύ (ή ο nightrider) εδώ, προφανώς.

Μου θύμισες πως πρέπει να το διαβάσω ξανά κάποια στιγμή γιατί είναι λεπτομερές και ιδιαίτερο έργο όσον αφορά αυτό το θέμα. Πάντως, ναι, φαίνεται πως ο Curta υποτίμησε αρκετά (to put it mildly) το μέγεθος της μετανάστευσης εκείνη την εποχή, σύμφωνα με τα σημερινά δεδομένα περί απλοομάδων τουλάχιστον. Το έργο του και οι απαντήσεις στους κριτικούς του είναι ενδιαφέροντα σε κάθε περίπτωση.

Το Din όντως φαίνεται μεταγενέστερο, τουλάχιστον στο μεγαλύτερο μέρος των Βαλκανίων. Δε νομίζω να αλλάξει κάτι αλλά ποιος ξέρει, θα δούμε.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

True but iirc it was found in Corded Ware Germany too. It could have already been in the Balkans back then, its frequency around here is still quite low anyway.

---

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

---

That's a totally different subclade to the ones found in Slavic speakers. It is Indo European or most likely asimilated Sarmatian. And we already knew there was some r1a and I2a in ancient balkans spread by the Thracians. None of it is i2a - DIN or linked to slavs or Germanics. Theres non-slavic i2a and r1a found in Albanians and Greeks. This is no surprise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time.

---

I2a-Din came from Poland Ukraine ca. 1500 years ago. it rapidly expanded into the Balkans with Slavic invading tribes led by Avars/ Huns. They pillaged and enslaved the indigenous population.. Attila is known as one of the biggest killers in history.

Dardania / Dalmatia was depopulated of its indigenous population and they retreated into Malsia, both latin and Albanian speakers. Malsia already had a indigenous population that spoke the same language. Vlachs are just latinized proto-Albanians.


That I2a-din is not native , This was proven already years ago by Ken Nordtvedts research when they found it's ancestral clade in Poland.

In ancient Croatia there have been found typical Albanian ydna's like J2b2 L283 and R1b-Z2103 that are barely found in south slavs but no i2a din found but you still believe its native. Human stupidity has no limits as Albert Einstein once said.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

http://i.imgur.com/r4SuBeB.png


I2a-din in south albania is from subjogated and asimilated Bulgarians. Local Albanians defeated the Bulgarian empire and took hostages and later asimilated them.

[QUOTE] Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. [QUOTE]

There's plenty of evidence. I2a-Din peaks in West Balkans due to a founder effect. This has been repeated 100 times. Your posts just repeat the same old myths like everyone else.

Quote:

---

Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

---

They spoke proto-Albanian.. pre - Slavic toponyms are explained in Albanian with the same meaning in Ilyrian . Notice when I say the same meaning. The only way Thracians , Ilyrian or Albanian is linked to Slavic is through Balto Slavic which again is linked to indo european expansion . Sarmatian was linked to Ilyrian and Thracians . The latter were even refered to as Indo Iranians . This all from indo european expansion . and that indo iranian r1a found makes sense too.

Quote:

---

According to Johann Georg von Hahn in 1854, 19th century historical linguistics concluded that the names Dardanoi and Dardania were derived from a proto-Albanian word, meaning pear tree (dardha in modern Albanian the definite form, dardhë indefinite form < PAlb *dardā[8]), in view of the fact that toponyms related to fruits or animals are not unknown in the region (cf. Alb. dele/delmë "sheep" supposedly related to Dalmatia, Ulcinj in Montenegro < Alb. ujk, ulk "wolf" etc.). Opinions differ whether the ultimate etymon of this word in Proto-Indo-European was *g'hord-, or *dheregh-.[9]

---

These are with same meaning as in the Ilyrian language. Nothing to do with Slavic unless its indo european connection .


All i2a , r1a etc descendant from eachother obviously but over thousands of years and population movements they split and developed subclades and different branches and absorbed other populations in the process.

Quote:

---

Some of 20th-century linguists[who?] have connected the name Bardylis with Albanian i bardhë "white",[6][7] There is another opinion that connects the name Bardylis with both Alb. i bardhë "white" and Alb. yll "star". According to Stuart Edward Mann, the second version is a folk etymology.[8] According to German linguist Paul Kretschner the name Bardylis is connected with the word "bardulos", which according to him means "grey" in the language of the Messapii in southern Italy.[9]

---

in Albanian it means white . In Ilyrian Bard also meant white . Messapian has also been linked to Albanian and were most likely Ilyrian migrants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

Because I believe it, I guess.

---

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bardylis

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.

---

Very very good post. Truth spoken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ADonkeyBrain

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

---

I wasn't talking about Z93 but the usual European subclades, I didn't phrase it right.

There is little evidence on the Ancient Blakans languages, I don't see why they can't have spoken some language related to modern Slavic. Whatever its origins, we also have very little idea about when and how it spread. People love taking things for granted when there's not nearly enough evidence.

I2a1b-Din has incredibly low diversity in the Balkans, it spread recently from the north/east during the middle ages.


This has been discussed one billion times.

I2a2 is almost completely absent in South Slavs:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup-I2b.gif

The only R1a that has been found in the Ancient Balkans is of the Z93 clade, which is not the Medieval Slavic clade most of Balkans is abundant of now.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...a-Z93-Asia.png

Slavonic Medieval R1a clades:


M458:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...p-R1a-M458.png


Y93:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...up-R1a-Y93.png

I am 100% in agreement that is not ancient balkan but i am also willing to bet anyone that all albanians with this Y are best citizens amongst all albanians as welll. Guaranteed,lol open bet to anyone on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drawing-slim

I am 100% in agreement that is not ancient balkan but i am also willing to bet anyone that all albanians with this Y are best citizens amongst all albanians as welll. Guaranteed,lol open bet to anyone on this.

---

I2a1b-Din is incredibly rare among Ghegs, especially highlanders.

Same goes for J2b1 that Dema is, a special snowflake in a sea of J2b2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Boss

I2a1b-Din is incredibly rare among Ghegs, especially highlanders.

Same goes for the J2b1 that is Dema, a special snowflake.

---

In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drawing-slim

In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:

---

Këto janë muhabete për të shtyrë kohën, kur s'ke ça bën hajt fillojmë dhe lozim me haplogrupe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laberia

Këto janë muhabete për të shtyrë kohën, kur s'ke ça bën hajt fillojmë dhe lozim me haplogrupe.

---

Exactly. First world propblems,lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drawing-slim

In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:

---

In Albania I2a1b-Din is mostly associated with Vlachs(Aromanians).

Vlachs picked up a bunch of I2a1b-Din from early medieval Slavs.

Apart from that, Vlachs have decent frequencies of native Balkan J2b2, EV13 and R1b-L23.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nightrider+

I wasn't talking about Z93 but the usual European subclades, I didn't phrase it right.

There is little evidence on the Ancient Blakans languages, I don't see why they can't have spoken some language related to modern Slavic. Whatever its origins, we also have very little idea about when and how it spread. People love taking things for granted when there's not nearly enough evidence.

---

Why would they of spoken a language related to modern Slavic? Why not Germanic, Celtic or Indo-Iranian
or even Baltic or Albanian? All these languages have been linked to ancient balkan and Albanian through indo european but somehow youre fixated solely on Slavs as if we ought to believe you don't have a political/nationalist agenda and in the process you also contradict yourself in the last sentence.

You're theory has no genetical evidence or linguistical. It's just based on wishful thinking. Time to take that Slavic dick out of your ass.

Dardanians have nothing to do with Slavs either but rather Albanians and Romanized people.

Everything I say is based on the truth.

I2a-Din was proven to be non native long time ago but you autists still havent catched up. Instead Gheg YDNA's are being found in ancient "Yugoslavia" then whats so hard to believe that these people spoke a language related to modern Albanian, which they actually did when they even match us genetically.

Even the word Bosnia, which is a slavicized version of Bessana, and Dalmatia are from proto Albanian... Vlach is just latinized proto Albanian.

Albanians talking about genetics is hilarious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catgeorge

Albanians talking about genetics is hilarious.

---

this the lamest thing i've read from you or anyone else on this forum for that matter. Wow.

This is Helladic Neolithic pottery found in......... modern Bosnia which can be seen Bosnian museum - you can go on about subclades for ever and a dy but Albanians talking about genetics is a farce

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.co...ir-vdvdv14.jpg


I2a1 is largely Sardinian and possible a few high caste families settled in Balkans via neolithic expansion carrying I2

The only difference in frequencies between Croatia and Sardinia is that Sardinia has more R1b and Croatia more R1a otherwise its structure is almost identicle.