Transylvanian/Romanian GEDmatch Results

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

In general, in Transylvania there are significantly more cases of people scoring more NA than Baltic compared to the rest of the country, so that probably points to the assimilation of Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons.

I think it could be due to common ancestry shared with Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons (i.e. Celtic admixture, Celts settled in Transylvania).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeduard

I think it could be due to common ancestry shared with Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons (i.e. Celtic admixture, Celts settled in Transylvania).

I doubt that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

I doubt that.

You can argue that Aeduard's point is correct, although there are 2 factors at play:

1) Despite the privileges of Hungarians and Szeklers, peasants were peasants and the aforementioned privileges did not concern them; mixing will happen.

2) Even so, the religious barrier proved itself to be at least partially effective in keeping populations separate from each other. The greek-catholic church probably helped with said barrier.

I think that if certified 4/4 Csango grandparent results would come up in enough numbers, we could probably use those to safely say whether mixing was older (celtic/germanic, pre-Hungarian state), or over the course of the 1000 years together.

These oracles shit are absolutely ridiculous. We all inherit a random selection of our ancestors' genes plus errors caused by genetic drift... In racial anthropology there is something similar called convergent evolution but racial anthropology is a lot more exact as well as being fully attributable to historic events: why do people in SE Balkans, regardless of language, look more or less the same (with regional variation), whether they are Romanian, Bulgarian or Hungarian speakers? Because before Romans, Slavs, Magyars one people used to live there: the Thracians...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aherne

Because before Romans, Slavs, Magyars one people used to live there: the Thracians...

Mixing with Romas/Gypsies will be the next homogenising factor for these countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

We don't have a sufficient number of Saxons to be able to conclude that.

I sent you a 100% unmixed Transylvanian Saxon kit and a 100% unmixed Banat Swabian kit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterski

I sent you a 100% unmixed Transylvanian Saxon kit and a 100% unmixed Banat Swabian kit.

Look at page 18.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

This is the average of 6 Saxons if anyone needs it
Romania_Transylvania_Saxon,36.95,23.28,17.66,6.80, 11.73,1.51,0.70,0.42,0.11,0.61,0.10,0.01,0.11

Apart from those 4, two more, but which - not the ones who are Serbian-like?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

I have 4 Transylvanian Saxons (3 are close family) found by Peterski. They were all born in the countryside (1 in Brasov, 3 family members from Mures (Sighisoara)) and look significantly more German than those 2 that I already had. Mine were from the town of Brasov, so perhaps they are more Romanian-influenced because of the character of an urban setting.
Also interesting to note that those from urban Brasov live in Romania, while these left for Germany during the communist period.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
Name N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan

Brasov_urban_1 28.80 23.90 16.40 11.34 15.81 1.81 0.97 0.44 0 0.32 0.14 0.08 0

Brasov_urban_2 30.10 26.02 16.78 7.59 14.70 2.70 0 0.83 0 0.89 0 0 0.37

Brasov_rural 42.38 19.00 19.51 5.95 10.16 0.78 0.72 0 0 1.08 0.43 0 0

Mures_Sighisoara_1 41.95 21.58 18.39 4.69 10.93 1.08 0.66 0 0 0.69 0 0 0

Mures_Sighisoara_2 39.60 25.27 16.14 6.41 8.05 1.75 0.84 0.85 0.67 0.09 0 0 0.29

Mures_Sighisoara_3 38.88 23.90 18.71 4.80 10.71 0.95 1.02 0.40 0 0.61 0 0 0

</google-sheets-html-origin>

Distance to: Brasov_rural

2.12739277 FRA_Central

3.58159182 Swiss_German2

3.63174889 FRA_Belgica

4.51566163 French

4.65835808 Swiss_German

5.14203267 FRA_Alsace

5.40847483 Swiss_French

6.05956269 AostaValley

6.28419446 South_Dutch

8.24403421 German_West

9.02352481 FRA_Septimania

9.91647115 FRA_Armorica

10.34858928 Spanish_Cataluna

11.15766105 German

11.19165314 Dutch

11.37286683 English_Southeast

11.40860640 Swiss-Italian2

11.87280506 FRA_Provence

11.96135026 IT_Trentino

11.99089655 Portuguese

12.02524428 Spanish_Galicia

12.04497821 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

12.23551797 Swiss_Italian

12.31381744 English_Midlands

12.85657030 English

Distance to: Mures_Sighisoara_1

2.53333772 Swiss_German2

3.16080686 Swiss_German

3.37850559 FRA_Alsace

3.62102196 FRA_Belgica

4.23407605 FRA_Central

5.48672033 South_Dutch

5.54669271 Swiss_French

6.80499816 French

7.04455109 German_West

8.18003056 AostaValley

9.24240229 German

9.81985743 FRA_Armorica

10.27513990 Dutch

10.95749059 Austrian

11.01090369 FRA_Septimania

11.04308381 English_Southeast

11.90280219 English_Midlands

12.16497020 IT_Trentino

12.18280345 Swiss-Italian2

12.38046041 English

12.38689227 Spanish_Cataluna

12.59238262 Swiss_Italian

12.82930629 FRA_Provence

12.95168715 English_North

13.31892638 North_German

Distance to: Mures_Sighisoara_2

3.33433652 FRA_Alsace

4.34027649 Swiss_German

5.05579865 Swiss_German2

5.12884977 German

5.56962297 Austrian

5.57752633 German_West

5.96714337 South_Dutch

6.12296497 FRA_Belgica

7.00327780 Swiss_French

9.09855483 FRA_Central

9.39289093 Dutch

10.16387229 German_East

10.29752883 FRA_Armorica

10.50510352 Hungarian_Transdanubia

10.62474000 North_German

10.85355241 English_Southeast

11.23342334 Hungarian_Budapest

11.27981383 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar

11.56289324 French

11.71968430 English_Midlands

11.86380630 English

12.06726978 Hungarian

12.27151987 AostaValley

12.35228319 Hungarian_Transylvania

12.41149467 Slovenian

Distance to: Mures_Sighisoara_3

3.55449012 Swiss_German

3.65376518 FRA_Alsace

4.16215089 Swiss_German2

4.90979633 Swiss_French

6.33554260 FRA_Belgica

7.02778059 FRA_Central

7.61938318 South_Dutch

8.26821021 Austrian

8.30698501 German_West

8.83135890 German

9.27918639 French

9.52815827 AostaValley

11.40612993 IT_Trentino

11.65970840 Hungarian_Transdanubia

12.01204396 Dutch

12.15949423 FRA_Armorica

12.40610334 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar

12.42982703 Hungarian_Budapest

12.47817695 Hungarian_Transylvania

12.47875795 Swiss-Italian2

12.81884160 FRA_Septimania

12.88441306 German_East

12.93155056 Hungarian_Szekely

12.97435162 IT_Friuli-VG

13.01392331 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Brasov_urban_1

5.30186760 Montenegrin

5.42690520 Romania_Transylvania

5.48474247 Romania_Crisana

5.50428924 Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia

5.87038329 Romania_Moldavia_South

6.03164986 Romania_Oltenia

6.07109545 Bosniak_Sandzak

6.34213686 Romania_average

6.84748129 Romania_Wallachia

6.85390400 Bulgaria_Southwestern

6.86654935 Hungarian_Szekely

7.05505493 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina

7.16119403 Serb

7.16889810 Serb_Croatia

7.20710067 Serb_Serbia_South&East

7.25671413 Romania_Banat

7.28433937 Serb_Croatia_Lika

7.28998628 Serb_Serbia

7.33480743 Serb

7.51825778 Serb_Serbia_West&Central

7.56121022 Serb_B&H_Herzegovina

7.60723340 Hungarian_Transylvania

7.68179016 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija

7.72230536 Romania_Maramures

7.75199329 Romania_Muntenia

Distance to: Brasov_urban_2

4.84617375 Hungarian_Szekely

5.20783064 Hungarian_Transylvania

5.23229395 Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia

5.78799620 Romania_Crisana

5.87176294 Hungarian_Csango

6.20710077 Serb_Croatia_Lika

6.23030497 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina

6.44443946 Serb_Croatia

6.69552089 Serb

6.84582354 Serb

6.86195307 Serb_Serbia

6.88809843 Montenegrin

6.93915701 Serb_Serbia_West&Central

6.94991367 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia

6.96170956 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija

7.00269948 Romania_Transylvania

7.00918683 Romania_Moldavia_South

7.07573318 Serb_B&H_Bosnia_proper

7.10736941 Romania_Maramures

7.19619344 Bosniak

7.27265426 Croat_Croatia_Istria_&_Kvarner

7.47418892 Serb_B&H

7.48444387 Croat_B&H_Bosnia_proper

7.51804496 Serb_B&H_Herzegovina

7.63457923 Serb_Serbia_South&East

Yes this makes sense! They are more German than the one who claimed being Saxon but was closest to Serbs, LOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Full Saxon from Brasov
If he's typical then Saxons are mixed af with Romanians.
Most of his matches have German surnames. His top 5 matches are Romanians though.

Kreuzer (also has a German forename)

# Population Percent

1 North_Atlantic 28.8

2 Baltic 23.9

3 West_Med 16.4

4 East_Med 15.81

5 West_Asian 11.34

6 Red_Sea 1.81

7 South_Asian 0.97

8 East_Asian 0.44

9 Amerindian 0.32

10 Oceanian 0.14

11 Northeast_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 Serbian 4.01

2 Romanian 4.49

3 Bulgarian 7.35

4 Hungarian 10.22

5 Moldavian 10.72

6 Austrian 11.77

7 Croatian 12.66

8 East_German 14.02

9 Greek_Thessaly 14.19

10 West_German 14.62

11 North_Italian 14.7

12 French 15.38

13 South_Dutch 16.25

14 Tuscan 16.29

15 Portuguese 18.06

16 Spanish_Galicia 18.54

17 Italian_Abruzzo 18.59

18 Spanish_Cataluna 18.88

19 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.16

20 South_Polish 19.24

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance

1 77.1% Bulgarian + 22.9% Irish @ 1.09

2 77.6% Bulgarian + 22.4% West_Scottish @ 1.18

3 85% Romanian + 15% Irish @ 1.28

4 85.4% Romanian + 14.6% West_Scottish @ 1.31

5 77.3% Romanian + 22.7% West_German @ 1.33

6 84.7% Romanian + 15.3% Southwest_English @ 1.34

7 75.7% Bulgarian + 24.3% Danish @ 1.35

8 75.9% Bulgarian + 24.1% North_Dutch @ 1.37

9 76.5% Bulgarian + 23.5% Orcadian @ 1.41

10 83.7% Romanian + 16.3% Southeast_English @ 1.41

11 73.6% Bulgarian + 26.4% North_German @ 1.42

12 79.2% Romanian + 20.8% South_Dutch @ 1.46

13 84.7% Romanian + 15.3% Orcadian @ 1.49

14 66.9% Bulgarian + 33.1% West_German @ 1.49

15 84.3% Romanian + 15.7% North_Dutch @ 1.5

16 76.7% Bulgarian + 23.3% Southwest_English @ 1.51

17 84.2% Romanian + 15.8% Danish @ 1.52

18 75.3% Bulgarian + 24.7% Southeast_English @ 1.58

19 82.7% Romanian + 17.3% North_German @ 1.59

20 69.3% Bulgarian + 30.7% South_Dutch @ 1.63

Target: Kreuzer
Distance: 2.4531% / 2.45305566 | ADC: 0.25x

70.8 Romania_Transylvania

22.4 German_West

4.8 Ashkenazi

2.0 Romani

0.0 East_German

0.0 German_east

0.0 Hungarian_Szekely

0.0 Hungarian_Transylvania

0.0 Romania_Crisana

0.0 Romania_Banat

Target: Kreuzer
Distance: 1.9656% / 1.96556330 | ADC: 0.25x

66.6 Romanian_Oltenia

21.2 German_West

10.8 Romania_Muntenia

0.8 Romani

0.6 Ashkenazi

0.0 East_German

0.0 German_east

0.0 Hungarian_Szekely

0.0 Hungarian_Transylvania

0.0 Romania_Moldavia_average

0.0 Romania_Moldavia_North

0.0 Romania_Moldavia_South

0.0 Romania_Transylvania

0.0 Romanian_Wallachia

0.0 Romania_Dobruja

0.0 Romania_Maramures

0.0 Romania_Crisana

0.0 Romania_Banat

Can't be a "full" Saxon.

=====

Edit:

As for A189XXX which I sent you - false alarm, he is not a Saxon, not even fully German.

Distance to:	Brasov_rural
2.12739277	FRA_Central
3.58159182	Swiss_German2
3.63174889	FRA_Belgica
4.51566163	French
4.65835808	Swiss_German
5.14203267	FRA_Alsace
5.40847483	Swiss_French
6.05956269	AostaValley
6.28419446	South_Dutch
8.24403421	German_West
9.02352481	FRA_Septimania
9.91647115	FRA_Armorica
10.34858928	Spanish_Cataluna
11.15766105	German
11.19165314	Dutch
11.37286683	English_Southeast
11.40860640	Swiss-Italian2
11.87280506	FRA_Provence
11.96135026	IT_Trentino
11.99089655	Portuguese
12.02524428	Spanish_Galicia
12.04497821	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
12.23551797	Swiss_Italian
12.31381744	English_Midlands
12.85657030	English

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_1
2.53333772	Swiss_German2
3.16080686	Swiss_German
3.37850559	FRA_Alsace
3.62102196	FRA_Belgica
4.23407605	FRA_Central
5.48672033	South_Dutch
5.54669271	Swiss_French
6.80499816	French
7.04455109	German_West
8.18003056	AostaValley
9.24240229	German
9.81985743	FRA_Armorica
10.27513990	Dutch
10.95749059	Austrian
11.01090369	FRA_Septimania
11.04308381	English_Southeast
11.90280219	English_Midlands
12.16497020	IT_Trentino
12.18280345	Swiss-Italian2
12.38046041	English
12.38689227	Spanish_Cataluna
12.59238262	Swiss_Italian
12.82930629	FRA_Provence
12.95168715	English_North
13.31892638	North_German

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_2
3.33433652	FRA_Alsace
4.34027649	Swiss_German
5.05579865	Swiss_German2
5.12884977	German
5.56962297	Austrian
5.57752633	German_West
5.96714337	South_Dutch
6.12296497	FRA_Belgica
7.00327780	Swiss_French
9.09855483	FRA_Central
9.39289093	Dutch
10.16387229	German_East
10.29752883	FRA_Armorica
10.50510352	Hungarian_Transdanubia
10.62474000	North_German
10.85355241	English_Southeast
11.23342334	Hungarian_Budapest
11.27981383	Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
11.56289324	French
11.71968430	English_Midlands
11.86380630	English
12.06726978	Hungarian
12.27151987	AostaValley
12.35228319	Hungarian_Transylvania
12.41149467	Slovenian

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_3
3.55449012	Swiss_German
3.65376518	FRA_Alsace
4.16215089	Swiss_German2
4.90979633	Swiss_French
6.33554260	FRA_Belgica
7.02778059	FRA_Central
7.61938318	South_Dutch
8.26821021	Austrian
8.30698501	German_West
8.83135890	German
9.27918639	French
9.52815827	AostaValley
11.40612993	IT_Trentino
11.65970840	Hungarian_Transdanubia
12.01204396	Dutch
12.15949423	FRA_Armorica
12.40610334	Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
12.42982703	Hungarian_Budapest
12.47817695	Hungarian_Transylvania
12.47875795	Swiss-Italian2
12.81884160	FRA_Septimania
12.88441306	German_East
12.93155056	Hungarian_Szekely
12.97435162	IT_Friuli-VG
13.01392331	Swiss_Italian

Distance to:	Brasov_urban_1
5.30186760	Montenegrin
5.42690520	Romania_Transylvania
5.48474247	Romania_Crisana
5.50428924	Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.87038329	Romania_Moldavia_South
6.03164986	Romania_Oltenia
6.07109545	Bosniak_Sandzak
6.34213686	Romania_average
6.84748129	Romania_Wallachia
6.85390400	Bulgaria_Southwestern
6.86654935	Hungarian_Szekely
7.05505493	Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
7.16119403	Serb
7.16889810	Serb_Croatia
7.20710067	Serb_Serbia_South&East
7.25671413	Romania_Banat
7.28433937	Serb_Croatia_Lika
7.28998628	Serb_Serbia
7.33480743	Serb
7.51825778	Serb_Serbia_West&Central
7.56121022	Serb_B&H_Herzegovina
7.60723340	Hungarian_Transylvania
7.68179016	Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
7.72230536	Romania_Maramures
7.75199329	Romania_Muntenia

Distance to:	Brasov_urban_2
4.84617375	Hungarian_Szekely
5.20783064	Hungarian_Transylvania
5.23229395	Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.78799620	Romania_Crisana
5.87176294	Hungarian_Csango
6.20710077	Serb_Croatia_Lika
6.23030497	Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
6.44443946	Serb_Croatia
6.69552089	Serb
6.84582354	Serb
6.86195307	Serb_Serbia
6.88809843	Montenegrin
6.93915701	Serb_Serbia_West&Central
6.94991367	Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.96170956	Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
7.00269948	Romania_Transylvania
7.00918683	Romania_Moldavia_South
7.07573318	Serb_B&H_Bosnia_proper
7.10736941	Romania_Maramures
7.19619344	Bosniak
7.27265426	Croat_Croatia_Istria_&_Kvarner
7.47418892	Serb_B&H
7.48444387	Croat_B&H_Bosnia_proper
7.51804496	Serb_B&H_Herzegovina
7.63457923	Serb_Serbia_South&East

Target: Kreuzer Distance: 2.4531% / 2.45305566 \| ADC: 0.25x
70.8	Romania_Transylvania
22.4	German_West
4.8	Ashkenazi
2.0	Romani
0.0	East_German
0.0	German_east
0.0	Hungarian_Szekely
0.0	Hungarian_Transylvania
0.0	Romania_Crisana
0.0	Romania_Banat

Target: Kreuzer Distance: 1.9656% / 1.96556330 \| ADC: 0.25x
66.6	Romanian_Oltenia
21.2	German_West
10.8	Romania_Muntenia
0.8	Romani
0.6	Ashkenazi
0.0	East_German
0.0	German_east
0.0	Hungarian_Szekely
0.0	Hungarian_Transylvania
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_average
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_North
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_South
0.0	Romania_Transylvania
0.0	Romanian_Wallachia
0.0	Romania_Dobruja
0.0	Romania_Maramures
0.0	Romania_Crisana
0.0	Romania_Banat

Top Closest population average to Transylvanian Saxons (only the 4 ones that I found):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Bavaria:Modern
0.5219291
(...)

They are closest to my average for Bavaria.

So these people are not at all like East Germans from Elbe-Oder area and from Poland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Also interesting to note that those from urban Brasov live in Romania, while these left for Germany during the communist period.

So the ones who stayed in Romania, most likely have intermarried with Romanians during the last 50 years.

Or how otherwise do you explain that they are so Non-Germanic despite claiming "fully" Saxon ancestry?

I think they must be recently mixed with Romanians/Hungarians.

Name	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Brasov_urban_1	28.80	23.90	16.40	11.34	15.81	1.81	0.97	0.44	0	0.32	0.14	0.08	0
Brasov_urban_2	30.10	26.02	16.78	7.59	14.70	2.70	0	0.83	0	0.89	0	0	0.37
Brasov_rural	42.38	19.00	19.51	5.95	10.16	0.78	0.72	0	0	1.08	0.43	0	0
Mures_Sighisoara_1	41.95	21.58	18.39	4.69	10.93	1.08	0.66	0	0	0.69	0	0	0
Mures_Sighisoara_2	39.60	25.27	16.14	6.41	8.05	1.75	0.84	0.85	0.67	0.09	0	0	0.29
Mures_Sighisoara_3	38.88	23.90	18.71	4.80	10.71	0.95	1.02	0.40	0	0.61	0	0	0

#	Population	Percent
1	North_Atlantic	28.8
2	Baltic	23.9
3	West_Med	16.4
4	East_Med	15.81
5	West_Asian	11.34
6	Red_Sea	1.81
7	South_Asian	0.97
8	East_Asian	0.44
9	Amerindian	0.32
10	Oceanian	0.14
11	Northeast_African	0.08

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Serbian	4.01
2	Romanian	4.49
3	Bulgarian	7.35
4	Hungarian	10.22
5	Moldavian	10.72
6	Austrian	11.77
7	Croatian	12.66
8	East_German	14.02
9	Greek_Thessaly	14.19
10	West_German	14.62
11	North_Italian	14.7
12	French	15.38
13	South_Dutch	16.25
14	Tuscan	16.29
15	Portuguese	18.06
16	Spanish_Galicia	18.54
17	Italian_Abruzzo	18.59
18	Spanish_Cataluna	18.88
19	Ukrainian_Lviv	19.16
20	South_Polish	19.24

#	Primary Population (source)			Secondary Population (source)			Distance
1	77.1%	Bulgarian	+	22.9%	Irish	@	1.09
2	77.6%	Bulgarian	+	22.4%	West_Scottish	@	1.18
3	85%	Romanian	+	15%	Irish	@	1.28
4	85.4%	Romanian	+	14.6%	West_Scottish	@	1.31
5	77.3%	Romanian	+	22.7%	West_German	@	1.33
6	84.7%	Romanian	+	15.3%	Southwest_English	@	1.34
7	75.7%	Bulgarian	+	24.3%	Danish	@	1.35
8	75.9%	Bulgarian	+	24.1%	North_Dutch	@	1.37
9	76.5%	Bulgarian	+	23.5%	Orcadian	@	1.41
10	83.7%	Romanian	+	16.3%	Southeast_English	@	1.41
11	73.6%	Bulgarian	+	26.4%	North_German	@	1.42
12	79.2%	Romanian	+	20.8%	South_Dutch	@	1.46
13	84.7%	Romanian	+	15.3%	Orcadian	@	1.49
14	66.9%	Bulgarian	+	33.1%	West_German	@	1.49
15	84.3%	Romanian	+	15.7%	North_Dutch	@	1.5
16	76.7%	Bulgarian	+	23.3%	Southwest_English	@	1.51
17	84.2%	Romanian	+	15.8%	Danish	@	1.52
18	75.3%	Bulgarian	+	24.7%	Southeast_English	@	1.58
19	82.7%	Romanian	+	17.3%	North_German	@	1.59
20	69.3%	Bulgarian	+	30.7%	South_Dutch	@	1.63