no ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
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no ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
I2a1b L621. some sources say it came to the Balkans with the thraciansQuote:
Originally Posted by mongrel
Doubt itQuote:
Originally Posted by Dick
This is called "founder effect".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Why? Is that the subclade in question here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
pssible but the ancient bulgarian samples in the last study were I2a2, R1b, R1a Z93, T1a1, G2a, C , H2Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Doubt it since it's the clade that South Slavs have the most. Not sure if OP was talking about this exact subclade thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Dick
What I find weird is how Romanians have such high I2a-Din even though they aren't Slavs. Perhaps it's due to genetic drift
baltic driftQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
It's also high in Vlachs of Albania, 30-40% I2a1b frequency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
The fact that I2a1b was found in north-western Europe could mean that it actually was from Goths, perhaps Deymark was correct lol xD
Vlachs/Aromanians of Albania also have a massive amount of J2b2-L283Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Cosmoo said that iirc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
Yes, they probably picked it up from the Dinaric mountains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
Yes he did but Deymark kept on claiming it as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
i've seen some Greek texts where the term vlach is used to refer to medieval isolated slavic-speaking populations of Greece .Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Maybe a fair bit of them are Latinized Slavs, before the Cyril & Methodius.Quote:
Originally Posted by mongrel
There is no proof of I2-DIN being slav,I2-DIN is a native european haplogroup ,it one of the original haplo of HG,only albanians on TA believe its a slavic haplogroup.
The slavic look in balkans is rare especially on zones were I2-DIN is the highest were the slavic look its non-existent.
According to Eupedia, Vlachs have a higher amount of J2 than I
I2-Din is nowhere found in Balkan Ancient samples. The only I2 found is I2a2 and barely exists anymore in Balkans, which is common in Northwest Germany, but even that is not the same subclade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea
I2a2
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup-I2b.gif
There is some proof now. On the recent study conducted there wasn't any I2a-Din found in the Balkans, only I2a2, R1b, R1a(Iranic), J2b2, G2a and E1b-L618(father of E-V13) was found. Every body that is mentally sane believes that I2a-Din is Slavic, the non-Slavic theory is an old, out-dated theory with no actual evidence to back it up. Although it was a HG haplogroup and it was found in north-western EuropeQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
It's most likely from Ukraine due to it's high diversity there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
Its like arguing that because nowadays I2A2 and G are rare in balkans ,that they were never a balkan haplogroup.Its just a matter of when the test was done.Its not as simple as getting a few samples and coming to conclussion that there were no I2A1 in balkans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
and j2b2 is neolitic and has nothing to do with illyrians.
The j2b2 if i remember well was like 15% HG and 20% INDO-EUROPEANS,no europeans score this low nowadays ,that guy was recent immigrant in a pool of hunter-gatherers
There was no EV13 in that study,which is the most common gheg haplo, but you seem you albanians forgot to point this out.
What the study shows is that balkans and Europe was made of mainly Hunter Gatherers haplogruops like I and G ,with a few farming haplos like J.
That there were no I2a1 in the study is no problem in itself,the samples were small and HG were always on the move and traveling in packs.
HG unlike neolitic farmers were moving frequently,hence the small sample of like 10 people of which a few didnt even had Y-DNA doesnt prove a thing,finding j2b2 is nothing uncommon,its an neolitic farmers haplo,
The father of E-V13 was found which could mean that E-V13 was present there later on. J2b2 was found from a proto-Illyrian sample which means that it does have something to do with Illyrians also it's probably not a Neolithic haplogroup but in fact it could of been an Indo-European haplogroup as the proto-Illyrian with it was 30% Steppe admixed and had a typical Steppe Mtdna. The results were released this month. So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't foundQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
He was 15% Eastern Hunter-Gatherer not 15% Hunter-Gatherer in general. The Balkans at that time was mainly G2a and this is evident due to the fact that it was found in massive amounts in Bulgaria and SerbiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
You dont understand.Let me put this straight to you,during the samples test majority by far were hunter gatherer haplos like I and G ,but nowadays albanians are mostly E and J very much unlike their neighbours .
Who says that sample is proto-illyrian?
J2b2 is farmer haplogroup,it didnt come with indo-europeans,this is unanymous opinion of anthrpologists.
> So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't found
Few samples dont conclude anything,if they did test with 1 less sample HIGH chance there wouldnt have been any EV13 or J2B2 in the study either and just full HG haplos.
Also,were was the EV13?i didnt see it on the bronze age balkans.
As i said previously hunter gatheres were always on the move and they were very few compared to farmers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
The fact that the j2b2 scored 15% ehg means even more that he was a recent addition in Europe..and how can you link a J2B2 sample from that time with illyrians ?!
Which means his WHG might peak even higher. Even more Ancient J2b2 samples have been found in Sardinia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea
Dude G2a is the original Neolithic farmer haplogroup, it has nothing to do with Hunter-Gatherers. He was proto-Illyrian as the age of the sample coincides with the arrival of the Illyrians into the Balkans. I just explained to you about the fact that the father clade of E-V13 was foundQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
At 15% EHG and something like 20% indo-european it means theres about 65% to spread between WHG and farmers,very low and unusual for that period,obvious recent import and nothing to do with illyrians and just partly european.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
As I have just said the J2b2 sample's age coincides with the Illyrian arrival into the BalkansQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
G2 is the only confirmed Farmer haplogroup. You can't pinpoint the rest in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea
Genetic evidence and timing suggest otherwise, he was Illyrian whether or not you will accept it. But I guess your angry because it disproves your theory on Albanians coming from the CaucasusQuote:
Originally Posted by Flea
J2b2 might have come from Sardinia to the Balkans 8000 years ago by a migration from the West, or even from Central Europe.
Caucasus is out of the question as L283 is only found in Europe.
"The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria." http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...A.shtml#J2b2a1
They did both. Oetzi was out hunting for mountain goats when he was murdered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
Hahahahaha, well yh but he came into Europe via the Neolithic migrations. It's obvious that Neolithic farmers already knew how to huntQuote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Hmm. Let's say the early farmers and maybe even WHG were seafarers. Indo-Europeans definitely weren't. They relied on horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Some of it may have migrated into the Steppe from the Balkans were it later expanded from in greater numbersQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Well every archaic human was a hunter and gather. Farming came afterwardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi