Actual Importance of Haplogroups

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Originally Posted by Marowit

I calculated how much hg R,I and N each european country has and I got some pretty interesting results.

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I'm sure you did, but the fact remains that to the individual, YDNA and mtDNA constitute the tiniest (literally, in regards to chromosome size) of one's autosomal DNA and are not useful for determining the ancestry of an individual, but rather, only that of large populations: hence your study.

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Originally Posted by Longbowman

Unlikely. There's a good chance you can tell where that person's male line ancestry isn't from but most haplogroups are found over a very wide area.

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Not really, i could guess easily that someone with R1b-L21 was from Britain, and i would be right 90% of the times... and if i guessed that someone with my haplogroup was from Portugal, i would have a good chance of guessing too.

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Originally Posted by Atlantic Islander

H1 is as boring as chalk.

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H1a1, on the other hand—infinitely fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Alex Delarge

Not really, i could guess easily that someone with R1b-L21 was from Britain, and i would be right 90% of the times... and if i guessed that someone with my haplogroup was from Portugal, i would have a good chance of guessing too.

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There are some smaller or more isolated haplogroups for which this might be true, but R1b-L21 isn't one of them. Although it's dominant in most of Britain and Ireland, it's also dominant in Brittany and extremely common in other parts of France, northern Spain and Iceland. Plus, given the enormous British diaspora, it will now be found across the globe, in African American population, creolles, and others - hence my point about how irrelevant it is to ancestry.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r1...ed=0CFsQ9QEwAw

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Originally Posted by Longbowman

I'm sure you did, but the fact remains that to the individual, YDNA and mtDNA constitute the tiniest (literally, in regards to chromosome size) of one's autosomal DNA and are not useful for determining the ancestry of an individual, but rather, only that of large populations: hence your study.

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What do you mean by "I'm sure you did".

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Originally Posted by Longbowman

There are some smaller or more isolated haplogroups for which this might be true, but R1b-L21 isn't one of them.

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Of course it is... it's one of the better examples of localized haplogroups that you will find in Europe. In a similar way, you could guess that someone with I1 would likely be scandinavian or someone with R1a would likely be Eastern European.

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Originally Posted by Longbowman

3) So why are they so often cited in human genetics?

Because they're the only genes automatically handed down father-to-son, and mother-to-child, excluding mutations, which makes them useful for identifying racial groupings. So if 80% of Britons are R1b, then R1b becomes associated with Britons. But, even assuming YDNA chomosome X is exclusively Finnish in origin, if someone has YDNA clade X, all it means is 1 great great great great great etc. grandparent was Finnish - and thus YDNA isn't hugely relevant in determine the race of an individual. Similarly, not being clade X doesn't mean you aren't Finnish, it just means your great great etc. grandparent wasn't Finnish. The remaining 99%+ of your makeup could easily be Finnish.

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It doesn't mean one great-great-etc. parent was Finnish. If a particular subclade, however, dominates in an ethnicity, like in Berbers, then yes but you're not speaking of that but if you were it wouldn't make someone 1% Berber and 99% something else. If you have a paternal ancestor who is 100% Martian a thousand years ago and no other Martians are in your family tree you wouldn't be 1% Martian. You'd be 0.000000000..... and so on ... 001% Martian regardless of the haplogroup/subclade.

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Originally Posted by Marowit

What do you mean by "I'm sure you did".

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That I'm sure you did, but it's not relevant to the point, which was about genetic impact. I did mention that haplogroups are used to observe large migration and population trends. It wasn't intended sarcastically.

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Originally Posted by Alex Delarge

Of course it is... it's one of the better examples of localized haplogroups that you will find in Europe. In a similar way, you could guess that someone with I1 would likely be scandinavian or someone with R1a would likely be Eastern European.

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No, it's a terrible example. It exists throughout western Europe and although I'll wager a majority of the carriers have British ancestry, a majority of the carriers are no longer British. The haplogroup has been diffused throughout the entire world, particularly during the colonial period, even if we look past the original other Atlantic populations, and plenty of African-Americans, Native Americans, Aboriginals and general mixed or part Whites will now be carriers. If I gave you 10 people with no other information but their YDNA and it was R1bL21 and you said they were all British or of primarily British ancestry, you'd probably be right four times, perhaps five.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

It doesn't mean one great-great-etc. parent was Finnish. If a particular subclade, however, dominates in an ethnicity, like in Berbers, then yes but you're not speaking of that but if you were it wouldn't make someone 1% Berber and 99% something else. If you have a paternal ancestor who is 100% Martian a thousand years ago and no other Martians are in your family tree you wouldn't be 1% Martian. You'd be 0.000000000..... and so on ... 001% Martian regardless of the haplogroup/subclade.

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In the example given where X was exclusive to Finns, yes it does. As YDNA accounts for c. ~1% of your autosomal DNA, if your YDNA is Finnish, you're 1% Finn. With regards to MtDNA you're right, though.

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Originally Posted by Longbowman

No, it's a terrible example. It exists throughout western Europe and although I'll wager a majority of the carriers have British ancestry, a majority of the carriers are no longer British. The haplogroup has been diffused throughout the entire world, particularly during the colonial period, even if we look past the original other Atlantic populations, and plenty of African-Americans, Native Americans, Aboriginals and general mixed or part Whites will now be carriers. If I gave you 10 people with no other information but their YDNA and it was R1bL21 and you said they were all British or of primarily British ancestry, you'd probably be right four times, perhaps five.

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I'm just gonna assume that YDNA distributions isn't your strong point.. so how does R1b-L21 compare with other types of R1b in terms of "existing throughout Western Europe"? (M529 is another way of saying L21)

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...s1600/s116.jpg