Evidence of a Germanic presence in eastern Europe

Ok, here again about the haplogroup N, which is closest related to O, a clearly Mongoloid East-South East Asian haplogroup.

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Haplogroup N is a descendant haplogroup of Haplogroup NO, and is believed to have first appeared in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, during the Ice Age.

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At that time we deal with AT LEAST Europoid forms in West Eurasia!

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After Haplogroup N arose in Southeast Asia, males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

At that time progressive Europids, especially more and more leptodolichomorphic variants from the South and East, expanded in Europe.

If that timeline is even remotely correct, an Europid origin of N is totally out of question and that even Baltic Finns deviate, at least somewhat, with their autosomal DNA towards the East Asian populations in comparison to the rest of Europe points also to the same pattern.

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Haplogroup N1c1
The subclade N1c1 is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. (It was previously known as N3a.) N1c1* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians and Lithuanians.[21] It's also more diverse in Northern Europe than in Siberia.[22]

Miroslava Derenko and his colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia (approximately 10,000 years ago on their calculated by the Zhivotovsky method) and spread into Northern Europe where its age they calculated as around 8,000 years ago.

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At that time you deal with the first Neolithic populations and Europe being dominated by clearly Europid variants already - when the carriers of N finally make it into the continent.

Another link:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/2010104

The N carriers might have been no classic Mongolids, but more Mongoloid than Europid and clearly different from both the archaic Cromagnoids in the North East, as well as the more progressive Cromagnoids and Aurignacoids further South.

The racial-phenotypical impact was very limited but being most evident in Europe's racial variation among Lappids (core group) and Eastbaltids (distinguished from Baltised Cromagnoids = Westbaltid-Baltid by their Mongoliform/part Mongoloid characteristics).

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Originally Posted by Agrippa

Ok, here again about the haplogroup N, which is closest related to O, a clearly Mongoloid East-South East Asian haplogroup.

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R is a subclade of P and closest related to haplogroup Q wich is most common in Amerindians, Turkic and Mongoloid populations.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8071/prq.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Q_(Y-DNA).PNG

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R is a subclade of P and closest related to haplogroup Q wich is most common in Amerindians, Turkic and Mongoloid populations.

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First of all, Indianids and Westsibirids are not strongly Mongoloid and lived closer to the Europid areas than the ancestors of N even.

Secondly, I deliberately mentioned the timeline for N, because regardless of their South East Asian origin, if they would have been present in an Europid zone 40.000 years ago, things might be different, but as we can see, they came into Europe not earlier than 10.000 years ago!

R on the other hand was always present the West Eurasian, Proto-Europoid sphere, it originated in an area which was and now is largely Europoid, it spread with it subclades in areas which were and are now largely Europid.

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This haplogroup is believed to have arisen around 20,000-34,000 years ago,[1] somewhere in Central Asia or South Asia, where its ancestor Haplogroup P is most often found at polymorphic frequencies

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= Proto-Europoid and Europoid territory and totally different timeline!

(Western-Southern) Central Asia was originally an Europid core area, until the Turko-Mongol expansions changed that.

So a relation - many tens of thousands of years old, to Q, can in no way be compared with the situation of N.

And actually, one is inclined to believe that Q-carriers were originally closer to Europids than the first N-carriers even, considering the relations of P and R.

Crucial is in any case which haplogroups and -type were present in the original Proto-Europoid groups and Europid's formation period - the same goes for Mongoloids.

Whether they had originally a closer relationship to this or that is not really relevant, more important is which groups came together in the Europid formation populations, the direct Europid ancestors.

The most typical lineages are in this context R and IJ obviously, as well as the minor groups which were present as well.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa

Ok, here again about the haplogroup N, which is closest related to O, a clearly Mongoloid East-South East Asian haplogroup.



At that time we deal with AT LEAST Europoid forms in West Eurasia!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)

At that time progressive Europids, especially more and more leptodolichomorphic variants from the South and East, expanded in Europe.

If that timeline is even remotely correct, an Europid origin of N is totally out of question and that even Baltic Finns deviate, at least somewhat, with their autosomal DNA towards the East Asian populations in comparison to the rest of Europe points also to the same pattern.



At that time you deal with the first Neolithic populations and Europe being dominated by clearly Europid variants already - when the carriers of N finally make it into the continent.

Another link:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/2010104

The N carriers might have been no classic Mongolids, but more Mongoloid than Europid and clearly different from both the archaic Cromagnoids in the North East, as well as the more progressive Cromagnoids and Aurignacoids further South.

The racial-phenotypical impact was very limited but being most evident in Europe's racial variation among Lappids (core group) and Eastbaltids (distinguished from Baltised Cromagnoids = Westbaltid-Baltid by their Mongoliform/part Mongoloid characteristics).

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This is Kalevi Wiik's view:
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8957/kwydna.png

The genetic development and migrations of the ancestors
of European men can be presented in the following ten
phases; see .
(1) About 50 thousand years ago (kya) all the ancestors
of the present European men still lived in northeastern
Africa and formed only one clan.
(2) About 45 kya the clan was split into an “African”
Clan E and an “Asian” Clan F, and the “Asian” clan
moved out of Africa to the Arabic peninsula and the
Near East.
(3) About 40 kya part of the “Middle Eastern” Clan F
gave rise to the “Central Asian” Clan K.
(4) About 35 kya two new clans, R and NO, branched
off from K. Clan R moved to western Central Asia and
Clan NO to eastern Central Asia.
(5) About 30 kya Clan R was split into R1 and R2, and
Clan R1 moved to the steppe area between the Ural
mountains and the Caspian Sea.
(6) About 25 kya one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b,
reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat
later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common
in the present-day Ukraine.
(7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent
another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans,
and a new sub-Clan I emerged.
(8) Perhaps at about the same time, Clan NO in eastern
Central Asia developed into “Siberian” Clan N and
moved towards the north.
(9) Clan N was split into two sub-clans, N3 and N2, and
these moved first to northwestern Siberia and later to
Eastern and Northeastern Europe.

Full PDF here: Where did European men come from?

But recently it has been proposed that N came from Eastern-Europe. Sounds logical(as it is more common in Eastern-Europe than other places), but we can't be sure in that.

You can continue your crusade saying that everyone who aren't "progressive" aren't pure Europeans and must have something foreign in them. I might have believed you 5 years ago, when I didn't know much about these subjects.

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But recently it has been proposed that N came from Eastern-Europe. Sounds logical(as it is more common in Eastern-Europe than other places), but we can't be sure in that.

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The current frequency tells you nothing about the origin, if the variation is very limited and you find f.e. just one or two types, like in Europe, with more variants and older variants being present elsewhere - further East in Mongoloids.

I mean if Q is most frequent in some Indianid groups, what can you say by that about its origin, if the original area was changed afterwards and genetic drift played in?

Nothing.

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You can continue your crusade saying that everyone who aren't "progressive" aren't pure Europeans and must have something foreign in them. I might have believed you 5 years ago, when I didn't know much about these subjects.

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I just say that at that time and in this context, more progressive variants expanded in Europe (Mesolithic to Metal Ages).

There are progressive non-Europids, like Sinid and Silvid - two Mongoloid racial forms actually and fully Europid less progressive elements, like very reduced-infantilised Alpinids or archaic Cromagnoid forms.

So again, this isn't true.

Edit: As for the Wiik interpretation, the picture didn't load before, it is not in concordance with other studies and even that is very, very close and somewhat too late rather for the Europid formation period. I mean if they had the habitat in Northern Central Asia, Northern Asia, around 20.000 years ago, without too many contacts to Europid populations, how could they become fully Europid then?

Even with Wiiks interpretation, the original N-carriers would be outside of the standard Europid variation.

N1c (in his old work still called N3) would have been arriving in a borderline area, with the starting Holocene (12.000 BP!), in North Eastern Europe!

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The Holocene is a geological epoch which began approximately 12,000 years ago

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene

At that time the Europid and Mongolid formation period came to an end and especially in parts of Eastern Europe we already find classic AND progressive Europids.

That "NO" was situated in the Europid formation area is still out of question.

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Originally Posted by Wiik

During the LGM the ancestors of the European
men retreated from northern Europe into four refuges
located in Iberia, the Ukraine, the Balkans, and Siberia.

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Correct with the vast majority of todays ancestors living on the Balkans and in the Ukraine, those in Siberia were no real Europids, most likely had at least also Mongoloid traits and they never entered Europe before the Holocene.

Westsibirid-Sibirids are therefore, most likely, closer to the original N-carriers than todays Baltic Finns and related Finno-Ugrians of more Europid character.

Also his work is, from a genetical point of view, in certain respects outdated.

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(6) About 25 kya one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b,
reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat
later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common
in the present-day Ukraine.

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Here is an opposing view and the one that makes the most sense to many, including myself, regarding R1b's migration into Europe.:)

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It was initially believed that R1b, or at least the majority of it in Europe, dispersed from Iberia after the Last Glacial Maximum, and had only come from Asia much earlier. A variant of this idea was that there may have been two separate R1b dispersals in the Mesolithic period, one from Anatolia, and one from Iberia. However, more recently it has become more widely accepted that R1b entered Europe from Asia more recently, perhaps in the Neolithic."The distribution of this lineage, the diversity within it, and estimates of its age all suggest that it spread with farming from the Near East...Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic", Balaresque et al. 2010,A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages{{cite book |author=B. Arredi, E. S. Poloni and C. Tyler-Smith |chapter=The peopling of Europe |editor=Crawford, Michael H. |title=Anthropological genetics: theory, methods and applications |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=Cambridge, UK |year=2007 |page=394 |isbn=0-521-54697-4}}

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Originally Posted by Basil

There is some evidence they were eventually assimilated into the Tatars.
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/i...id=16205&st=0&
(the last paragraph in the first post and the second post)

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Wow; благодарю!

In short, for non-Russian speakers, some Germanic lexica was observed even in 1806, among the Crimean Tatars of the Mangup region. And these same differed in appearance from their neighbours, appearing more 'northern European'.

A Swedish traveller in the 1600s compiled a list even longer than Busbeq's but lost his notes later on, in China. :(

The village of Nikita was known (prior to forced exile of its inhabitants in 1944) for its Nordic inhabitants.

... an Islamic Germanic people!! :eek:

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Also in 1778 Catherine II resettled all Christians of Crimea (mainly Greeks and Armenians) to the areas next to the Sea of Azov in order to undermine the economy of peninsula. It's very likely there were remnants of the Goths and Hellenised Goths among others.

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Ah!

That explains the Greek areas between Donetsk and the coast of the Sea of Azov! I always wondered when this had happened. My friend's father lived around there before moving to Moscow, and taught us some Greek swearwords. :thumbs up Heh, I might even go some day, to spot a Goth... ;)

Here they are, bright green on the right;
http://a.imageshack.us/img69/3030/ukrainafolk.jpg

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Originally Posted by Osweo

... an Islamic Germanic people!! :eek:

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Didn't Hitler wish that Germanics had adopted Islam instead of Christianity...:D

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Originally Posted by Pallantides

Didn't Hitler wish that Germanics had adopted Islam instead of Christianity...:D

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Absolut rubish from where do you get your lies?? :rolleyes2:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa

I just say that at that time and in this context, more progressive variants expanded in Europe (Mesolithic to Metal Ages).

There are progressive non-Europids, like Sinid and Silvid - two Mongoloid racial forms actually and fully Europid less progressive elements, like very reduced-infantilised Alpinids or archaic Cromagnoid forms.

So again, this isn't true.

Edit: As for the Wiik interpretation, the picture didn't load before, it is not in concordance with other studies and even that is very, very close and somewhat too late rather for the Europid formation period. I mean if they had the habitat in Northern Central Asia, Northern Asia, around 20.000 years ago, without too many contacts to Europid populations, how could they become fully Europid then?

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What is the Europid formation period? Also, you're always saying that Central-Asia was some kind of Europid heartland. N and R both come from Central Asia. N from eastern Central Asia and R from western Central Asia.

Does a Europid population need contacts to Europid populations to become "fully Europid"?

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Even with Wiiks interpretation, the original N-carriers would be outside of the standard Europid variation.

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According to you.

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N1c (in his old work still called N3) would have been arriving in a borderline area, with the starting Holocene (12.000 BP!), in North Eastern Europe!

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Define borderline and tell me exactly who inhabited the borderline areas 20 000 years ago.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene

At that time the Europid and Mongolid formation period came to an end and especially in parts of Eastern Europe we already find classic AND progressive Europids.

That "NO" was situated in the Europid formation area is still out of question.

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Wasn't Central-Asia an "Europid heartland" as you have stated before?

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Correct with the vast majority of todays ancestors living on the Balkans and in the Ukraine, those in Siberia were no real Europids, most likely had at least also Mongoloid traits and they never entered Europe before the Holocene.

Westsibirid-Sibirids are therefore, most likely, closer to the original N-carriers than todays Baltic Finns and related Finno-Ugrians of more Europid character.

Also his work is, from a genetical point of view, in certain respects outdated.

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Both the people who retreated into the Ukrainian and Siberian refugees and then resettled Northern-Europe, spoke Finno-Ugric languages. The Northern group of Finno-Ugrics had N3 and the Southern group had R1a.

What Mongoloid traits are you talking about by the way? If it's the extreme borealization by living in the coldest inhabited region in the world, then you probably don't have to answer.

The original N-carriers were of pure Cro-Magnon stock, they were not related to modern-day Siberians.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/943...ndlinguist.png

What aspects of his work, from a genetical point of view, are outdated?

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Originally Posted by Inese

Absolut rubish from where do you get your lies?? :rolleyes2:

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ISLAM, A RELIGION COMPATIBLE FOR THE GERMANIC PEOPLES

His conversations on a number of subjects were recorded by his closest confidants. One of these was Albert Speer, chief architect and Reich Minister of Armanents and Munitions, who quoted Hitler's regret the Germans accepted Christianity rather than religions which would have been more compatible to them:

"Hitler usually concluded this historical speculation by remarking: 'You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?'

http://www.ummofiles.com/POMAGALSKY/...and_mufti1.jpg

"It is only with the Roman empire where one can say that culture was a factor under the government. The government of the Arabs in Spain too was infinitely distinguished: Many scientists, thinkers, astronomers, mathematicians, one of the most humane times, at the same time as a colossal knighthood. When, later, Christianity came there, then one can say: barbarians. The knighthood that the Castilians have is actually one of Arab heritage. If Charles Martel had not overcome in Poitiers: since the Jewish world already seized us - that Christianity is something well of insipid - we would have better received Mohammedanism, those doctrines of the reward of heroism-: combatants alone have the seventh heaven! With that the Germans would have conquered the world. It is only by Christianity that we have been held distant."

http://debatt.aftenposten.no/item.ph...=1#item4773989
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f...muslims-16502/

I must admit that the majority of the Goths left the Dnestr region following the arrival of the Huns, but if you read the entire Hlöðskviða it states that many of them retreated and hid in the forests, so I think there is some continuum of the Gothic phenotypes in Moldova. I think these Moldovans are good examples of what the Goths looked like. I will post pictures of my family members later.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...erial/1111.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial/111-1.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial/222-1.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...terial/555.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...terial/666.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...terial/444.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...erial/6666.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...terial/333.jpg

The Scandinavian look is very distinct and it's very easy to differentiate them from Slavic blonds.

Looking at these beauties, the Scandinavians are dying of envy, and Slavic Mongoloid blondes sprinkle ashes on his head .....

Now everyone knows how the ancient Goths look .....

This guy could pass as Scandinavian:
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...terial/444.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lenna

Both the people who retreated into the Ukrainian and Siberian refugees and then resettled Northern-Europe, spoke Finno-Ugric languages. The Northern group of Finno-Ugrics had N3 and the Southern group had R1a.

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Pseudo-science.
None of the refugia spread the Uralic language.
You cannot guess the language from the genes.

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/Uralic.html

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Originally Posted by Jaska

Pseudo-science.
None of the refugia spread the Uralic language.
You cannot guess the language from the genes.

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/Uralic.html

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You're stuck in the 19th century, with your outdated theories.

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Originally Posted by Lenna

You're stuck in the 19th century, with your outdated theories.

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Very funny! :thumb001:
I represent the newest and best argued views of the last decade. You support the views that were disproved and outdated even at the 80's (J.P. Mallory's critique at Colin Renfrew's continuity argumentation at 1989). You can't survive with bluff here. I'm ready to discuss with you about the subject, but you only bluff.

You may first tell us, how is it possible to predict the language from genes? To my knowledge, there is no gene which would determine that I speak Finnish, you speak Estonian and so on.

Please, the arena is yours. :)

P.S: In case you didn't notice, I put the question bold.

There are many evidences, including features.

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Originally Posted by Ibericus

Actually one of the theories is that haplogroup I1 originated in the Balkans:cool:

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Not at all.
It clearly originated in Southern Sweden.

fuck you for bumping my old threa... Oh wait, I thought it was my thread.

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Originally Posted by safinator

Not at all.
It clearly originated in Southern Sweden.

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Southern Sweden?
Genographic project clearly says that it possibly originated there
(See M253)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-Genomap01.jpg
This branch is still present in Spain and has nothing to do with Scandinavian ones. I analysed a Spanish Project carefully to make that statement.