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Yes very strange, what the heck happened for Central Europeans to be this southern? It seems like Europeans magically pulled themselves towards one another since the middle ages, with Southern Europeans having more Steppe and Northern less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA
Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe
Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA
I'd say they were archaic Celts. There were Celts actively influencing Germanic culture and language in North Germany at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Even if they are Germanic or from Northern Germany they are still more northern than anyone could imagine, I don't believe anyone has so much Steppe in peninsular Europe since the start of the Iron Age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.
Interesting they no longer look Scandinavian if you use ancient samples. All the closest ancient matches are from Non-Germanic areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
=====
Didn't someone claim before that "Scythian_MDA_o" were ethnic Bastarnians ???
Why? Didn't you theorize that Celts were more southern?Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
I believe the Empuries 'Gaul' (as some hypothesized) would fit this framework very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Initially, but after the Empuries outlier i changed my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
If those samples originate from around 100BC Switzerland and score as far as Norway then its possible to be Germanic in origins. Maybe they are related to Cimbri migrants....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Yeah, but what if he was not Gaul but for example Armorican or Hibernian or Briton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Ancient Greeks had contact with Britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
Not too early for Germanics in Switzerland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeroostah
Tbh that might be because we lack enough Bronze age samples from Scandinavia or Northern Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
What are you talking about, I've always held the opinion that La Tene Celts were more Northern than Scandinavians :rolleyes: ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Empuires and one of the Bohemian ones actually gives credence to this, but yeah, then you have the French-like Bohemian one and all the southern Lech ones. At most this says northern Euros used to be a lot more racist than they are today.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
That interpretation was based on the idea that Celts in Southern of Centrla France couldn't have changed so much because of Roman rule and that contintental Celts weren't this Northern, but maybe those assumptions weren't correct. We need to create a coherent model with more samples though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Not really considering the Cimbrian Wars (probably the first ever massive Germanic migration from modern day Denmark)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_War
They could be northern Celts. I'm not too far from some of these samples. Obviously the distances aren't close to any moderns.
Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.04190749 Norwegian
0.04451211 Swedish
0.04555708 Icelandic
0.04595731 Grace_scaled
0.04763377 Dutch
0.04884175 Orcadian
0.04893182 Irish
0.04942682 Scottish
0.04994741 Shetlandic
0.05119938 Danish
0.05142766 Afrikaner
0.05147107 Welsh
0.05280137 English
0.05292579 German
0.05448067 French_Brittany
0.05449511 Czech
0.05525978 Slovakian
0.05576292 English_Cornwall
0.05713404 German_East
0.05834048 Austrian
0.06034971 Hungarian
0.06178791 Moldovan_o
0.06274732 Belgian
0.06298421 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.06318391 French_Seine-Maritime
Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.04265581 Swedish
0.04275908 Icelandic
0.04353717 Norwegian
0.04371792 Grace_scaled
0.04402365 Orcadian
0.04427637 Dutch
0.04472942 Scottish
0.04476116 Irish
0.04550625 Welsh
0.04616030 German
0.04662647 Shetlandic
0.04731126 English
0.04771035 Afrikaner
0.04792178 French_Brittany
0.04812475 Danish
0.04828322 German_East
0.04943519 English_Cornwall
0.05116386 Czech
0.05193253 Austrian
0.05481130 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05530325 Slovakian
0.05547181 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05555950 Hungarian
0.05593465 Belgian
0.05871971 French_Nord
Anyway very interesting and not really expected.
Yeah these could actually very easily be Cimbri or Teutons, who started invading the Romans around 110 BC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeroostah
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...asions.svg.png
They pass right by Switzerland.
I mean only to some extent, the southernmost Lech samples are still 30% Steppe I believe while the highest one excluding the one highest outlier is 52% Steppe, I believe this would support some sort of caste system but not a complete one or at least it formed after significant amount of intermixing happened, even if from just top to bottom(given how those Swiss samples look)Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
As far as i know Hallstatt is already considered an (early) Iron age culture. I'm not sure why you guys are assuming the sample is from 100 BC, that would be roughly the end of the Iron Age. Is there anything that i'm not aware of?
If these are really Iron Age Celts, why are England IA and Scotland LBA further away from them than Scotland EBA/MBA/BB and England EBA/MBA/BB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
I'm not sure what this in reference to? Thanks for posting these interesting samples though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
You mentioned La Tene(450-50 BCE) and Petersky mentioned 100 BCE, not sure where the precise dating comes from, tbh we should wait for the details before speculating as we can build 100 theories all as possible as any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
I only know they are from the Iron Age, maybe calling it La Tčne was too precocious.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Looking at unscaled but unscaled does give some strange results.
Distance to: MX195
0.02578284 Norwegian
0.02606281 Grace_unscaled
0.02711835 Swedish
0.02778015 Welsh
0.02787837 Afrikaner
0.02807151 German
0.02813349 Dutch
0.02849624 French_Brittany
0.02857117 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02870161 Icelandic
0.02929875 Irish
0.02959342 Scottish
0.02973348 Orcadian
0.03044136 English
0.03061823 Shetlandic
0.03063097 Danish
0.03080346 Belgian
0.03111374 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03133332 Austrian
0.03142971 English_Cornwall
0.03153554 French_Nord
0.03239497 French_Alsace
0.03284300 French_Paris
0.03393647 Czech
0.03457507 Swiss_German
Comparisons with British Isles people:
Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03758439 England_IA
0.04416086 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04439941 Scotland_LBA
0.04526137 England_Roman
0.04642032 Orcadian
0.04784262 Irish
0.04838956 Welsh
0.04924562 English
0.05016711 Shetlandic
0.05195102 England_EMBA
0.05256981 English_Cornwall
Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03887208 England_IA
0.04044366 England_Roman
0.04380038 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04402365 Orcadian
0.04476116 Irish
0.04550625 Welsh
0.04662647 Shetlandic
0.04731126 English
0.04943519 English_Cornwall
0.04975563 England_EMBA
Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03849249 England_IA
0.04532686 Scotland_LBA
0.04599462 Orcadian
0.04665161 England_Roman
0.04721007 Irish
0.04751994 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04871952 Welsh
0.04935383 Shetlandic
0.04946646 English
0.05315369 English_Cornwall
0.05352516 England_EMBA
Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.04027800 England_IA
0.04557179 Scotland_LBA
0.04824951 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04877287 England_Roman
0.04884175 Orcadian
0.04893182 Irish
0.04994741 Shetlandic
0.05147107 Welsh
0.05280137 English
0.05332082 England_EMBA
0.05576292 English_Cornwall
https://i.postimg.cc/GmcBSmkN/Opera-...-github-io.png
https://i.postimg.cc/FKkhTMn8/Opera-...-github-io.png
It would be interesting to see if Irish and British get a higher percentage of these samples than they do the Hallstatt samples.
Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman
model:
Spoiler!
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA
model:
Spoiler!
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled
model:
Spoiler!
They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
model:
Spoiler!
Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA
Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA
model:
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
Thanks. I get none with these models either.Quote:
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled
model:
They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.
Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
model:
Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA
Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA
model:
Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.8717% / 0.01871730
57.8 Scotland_LBA
42.2 DEU_MA
Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.8360% / 0.01836007
49.0 Scotland_LBA
39.0 DEU_MA
6.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
6.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
Either these people stayed pure Northern Bell Beaker-like in Switzerland for 2000 years but had little to no genetic influence on others, or they're misdated.
They look like early British and Dutch Bell Beakers as far as their plotting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
yes connected to the proto nordic germanic tribes ,in truth they are from the benelux and northern france /germany for the proto celtic tribes they slide down to the south east later in austria/switzerland/east of france/northern italy,the with the hallstatt iron age and the "la téne" culture period ,for example the burgonds as proto-germanic tribe is from southern denmark ,proto-celts and proto-gemanics are really connected they are the cradle of the genuine european civilisationQuote:
Originally Posted by Token
if you look,after the hercynians they are located in poland,germany,austria and czech republic ,this is after the proto-germanic from the north tribes moves southern,all this it's way before the romanian empire ,so in a larger way yes celts are norther european ,after all it's depend where you are situating your north
proto-germanic tribes core and the halttstat iron age/la téne core
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s_ca._AD_1.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._in_Europe.png
Hercynia
- Eastern Celts[1]
- Anartes/Anartoi – Celts assimilated by Dacians.[2] Areas of modern Slovakia and modern Northern Hungary, north of the river Tysia/Tibiscus (Tisza). They lived in the east part of the Hercynia Silva (Hercynian Forest).
- Boii[1]– a tribal confederation, originally from today's Bohemia (Western Czech Republic) that dwelt in the Hercynia Silva and dispersed through migrations to other regions of Europe, to areas of modern Slovakia, Germany, Austria, Hungary and Northern Italy.[3][4]
- Boii tribes of unknown names in the Hercynia Silva - roughly in today's Bohemia
- Cotini – areas of modern Slovakia, west of the Anartes, and areas of Western Hungary, south of Lacus Pelsodis/Pelso (Lake Balaton).
- Lugii – areas of modern southwestern and southern Poland; also may have been a Germanic tribe.
- Osi/Osii – areas of modern Slovakia[5]
- Volcae - a tribal confederation, originally from today's Moravia (Eastern Czech Republic), Central and Upper Danube basin (Slovakia, Austria, Southern Germany), dwelt in Hercynia Silva, north of the Danuvius (Danube), but dispersed through migrations to other regions of Europe (Southern Gaul) and Asia Minor/Anatolia (Galatia).
- Volcae tribes of unknown names in the Hercynia Silva - roughly in today's Moravia.
Target: MX195_scaled
Distance: 2.4486% / 0.02448641
50.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
30.6 Early_European_Farmer
11.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
2.2 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
Target: MX192_scaled
Distance: 2.5943% / 0.02594313
49.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
6.8 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Ancient_American
Target: MX190_scaled
Distance: 2.4890% / 0.02488996
54.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
30.0 Early_European_Farmer
15.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
Target: MX188_scaled
Distance: 1.7278% / 0.01727845
51.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
7.0 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Africa_Mesolithic
Celts must be really divergent phenotype wise. They had Central European, Northern European and even some darker Southern European look depending on tribe, geography etc.
Real authentic genuine celts will come out similar to that British like Gaul from empuries (I8206)
They were definitely a lot more northern than those Lech Valley MBA samples but certainly not Scandinavian levels of steppe ancestry.
What do you think about the ancient Irish Raithlin sample(s) and English Iron age samples ? Sorry, if this is a stupid question but I'm not an expert on this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator Biff
Look at the dark blue: pre-celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
I have always seen that they are named pre-celtic or proto-celtic. Maybe here there is the real deal:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ia_200_BCE.PNG
Let's not exaggerate, they don't have as much steppe as Dutch Beakers. They are just very slightly above North European steppe level. Apparently, if they are indeed Iron Age as Davidski claims, there is a good chance they are from a massive Hallstatt burial (the largest in Switzerland) since this is one of the hugest sites of Iron Age Switzerland. Information on the site posted by an Anthrogenica member: https://www.ag.ch/media/kanton_aarga...en_baerhau.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Code:Distance to: Viriato
0.02675706 Hallstatt_Celt:DA111
0.03394676 Iberia_BA
0.04533877 Nordic_BA
0.04579137 MX190
0.04849712 Mycenaean
0.05079488 MX192
0.05198288 MX188
0.05247485 MX195
0.05992303 Armenia_MBA
0.06143201 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.06946512 North_African
0.08699746 Yoruba