Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:

Code:

---

Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305,0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.006034,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8        Slav
24.6        Roman
22.4        Thracian
10.2        Proto_Bulgarian

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andre

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:

Code:

---

Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305,0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.006034,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8        Slav
24.6        Roman
22.4        Thracian
10.2        Proto_Bulgarian

---

---

Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

---

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Eastern Bulgaria has a definitive Turkish majority with a ratio of 80% to 20%. IRO was present in regions such as Dobruja and Edirne because Bulgarian officers were well organized and trained by Russians, while Turks were a bunch of villagers.


Also, just to prove what I had stated:




Dodecad K12b comparison of two populations:

https://i.ibb.co/7R99L82/K12B.png

And let's look at the newly coming Proto-Bulgar article by Stamov that PAGANE mentions:



1- What is "a distinct Caucasus signal?" He uses Vahaduo(this is also funny btw) to make such conclusions, what did he see? 10 Distance to Alans or something?
2- How Proto-Bulgarians can be close to the THRACIANS?
3- How you concluded they are Sarmatians?



Well, it is Q-L330, which is Hunnic.

The Alan L330 which I posted before in this forum was an outlier, and his admixture was actually Bashkir-like. So, it has nothing to do with Sarmatians or actual Alans.



Interesting... Claiming Eastern Roman heritage up to 30%, yet 0-10% Thracian at the same time. That's probably because he considered Scythian Moldovans as Proto-Bulgars, while they are Thracians.

I mean, me, being all of my ancestors are from Thrace, have only 0-10% Thracian?


You can check all the notes from the work here

---

So yes, what we see here is this research was done by someone who is highly biased or not qualified enough to carry out it. In this sense, it is also wrong to expect that this article will make a contribution to what we know. Perhaps it can work if he decides to share all the data publicly yet what he will write in the article already will manipulate people.

---

Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

---

Yes, even after N there are some other routes in which additional Iran_N can be carried to the region. But Proto-Bulgar is not one of these, because all the neighboring populations score similar amounts except for Turks. He tries to deep dive into possibilities, this is not wrong. The actual troll is making a conclusion about Proto-Bulgars by looking at modern Bulgarians who don't have an additional admixture compared to other South Slavs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.

---

Balkan Turks are a mix of Oghuz Turks who came from Anatolia(without Anatolian admix, in the nomadic form), Tatars, and Anatolian Turks who settled after the 1600s. (See: Celali Rebellions) The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar. On the other hand, some regions in Thrace and Macedonia also known as Cuman settlements. Eventually, it might consist of all of the groups mentioned above and what we see here is like 80-85% Balkan and 15-20% Central Asian on average. -Anatolian admixture seems to be absorbed- Another point is these people melted in the same pot and it is not possible to make a conclusion by looking at Turkic populations they get. I mean, Oghuz already mixed with Kipchak, and Oghuz & Kipchak already mixed with Proto-Bulgar(if there are)... So, there is actually a chance that the language shift of Gagauz can be about Proto-Bulgars. Turks from Deliorman known in the same way among the local people.


Briefly, I'm implying Proto-Bulgar admixture is not present in the Balkans, yet even if we presume it is preserved in some way, it would be among Balkan Turks. Because:

1- Eastern Bulgaria, where Proto-Bulgars settled, was a Turkish region before the Russo-Turkish War. The Bulgars who had lived there mixed with Turks. Most of the Bulgarians who live in the East now came from the West during Communism.
2- Among all the Balkan ethnics, only Turks and some Romanian individuals have elevated Gedrosia/East Eurasian. Bulgarians are not different than the rest of the South Slavs.

Why not Gagauz?

Also in Gagauz, but they mixed with other Christians(Slavic Bulgarians, Greeks) and EE lowered eventually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar.

---

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman, which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Moldova_Gagauzia	10	19.56	22.60	18.18	13.67	20.38	2.04	0.78	0.56	1.06	0.26	0.40	0.36	0.15

</google-sheets-html-origin><google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman	12	21.55	22.98	17.68	11.44	20.38	2.69	0.60	0.57	0.87	0.55	0.65	0.00	0.05

</google-sheets-html-origin>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman, which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Moldova_Gagauzia	10	19.56	22.60	18.18	13.67	20.38	2.04	0.78	0.56	1.06	0.26	0.40	0.36	0.15

</google-sheets-html-origin><google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman	12	21.55	22.98	17.68	11.44	20.38	2.69	0.60	0.57	0.87	0.55	0.65	0.00	0.05

</google-sheets-html-origin>

---

Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-conten...BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-conten...BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

---

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1940-2010.jpg

Why don't Bulgarians learn their real pre-history?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1940-2010.jpg

---

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

---

Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

---

That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.

---

Also surnames of Bulgarian origin are pretty common in Wallachia.
"Dobre" seems to be the 47th most popular surname in Romania with 42k people bearing it. It is mostly concentrated there.

https://i.ibb.co/R4jhV4N/image.png

Another one is "Voicu", which is the 46th most popular in the country with also 42k holders. Again mostly concentrated in Wallachia.

https://i.ibb.co/DLTCHnW/image.png

And that's without counting derivatives like those with changed suffixes like Voiculescu (3.5k), Boicu (3k), Dobrescu (8k), Dobrin (9k), Dobrea (3.5k), Dobrean (800), Dobreanu (800), Dobromir (600), etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

---

Because it must have been a key location for the people that they called Vlachs. Maybe that was the first "gate" for the trade into Wallachia from the direction of Bulgaria? That was probably its defining feature, hence the Slavic Vlasca.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

---

Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriekman

Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

---

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

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A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

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Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

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Alfatlar was either a mixed Turkish/Bulgarian village or a Turkish village. I mean, even its current name is Turkish and there are three more Turkish villages with the same name. But there are only a few Turks now.

Bulgarian Wikipedia claims it is Bulgarian since 1571, and the name Alfatar is Proto-Bulgar. Proto-Bulgars lived before 1571, yet the village is not present in 1530.


See the geolocation of it and the presence of Bulgarian villages in 1530. In red circles. The rest is Turkish.

https://i.ibb.co/Ttjsx9f/Ads-z.png

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Originally Posted by Leto

Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

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Exactly.

Eastern Bulgarians = A mix of Western Bulgarians, Greeks, Thracian Bulgarians + Actual Eastern Bulgarians.

Gagauz = Actual Eastern Bulgarians + Greeks + Bulgarians who moved to Moldova.

Caspias is somewhat right. In Eastern Bulgaria there has always been a Bulgarian population, but it was mostly rural. The Ottoman population is predominantly urban. For the entire 500-year period there has been a large movement of Bulgarians throughout the ethnic territory. Much of this territory today is outside the borders of Bulgaria. Until the middle of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century the predominant movement of the Bulgarians was in the direction of the western Balkans and the north. But from the beginning of the 19th century. a return from west to east begins. All these internal migrations are caused by a number of reasons - influenced by internal or external factors.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Alfatlar was either a mixed Turkish/Bulgarian village or a Turkish village. I mean, even its current name is Turkish and there are three more Turkish villages with the same name. But there are only a few Turks now.

Bulgarian Wikipedia claims it is Bulgarian since 1571, and the name Alfatar is Proto-Bulgar. Proto-Bulgars lived before 1571, yet the village is not present in 1530.


See the geolocation of it and the presence of Bulgarian villages in 1530. In red circles. The rest is Turkish.

https://i.ibb.co/Ttjsx9f/Ads-z.png




Exactly.

Eastern Bulgarians = A mix of Western Bulgarians, Greeks, Thracian Bulgarians + Actual Eastern Bulgarians.

Gagauz = Actual Eastern Bulgarians + Greeks + Bulgarians who moved to Moldova.

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So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it

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Your Bulgarian is very minor, 6.25%, so hypothetically even if it was Balkan Turkish, it wouldn't be noticeable in you autosomally since Balkan Turks are 70-80% native Balkanite (pre-Ottoman).

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it

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Well, being half Pomak, I have only 2 Pomak matches.

Imagine the situation at 6.25%. Leto is correct in this sense. S-he could be either Bulgarian or Turkish. Even if we assume was Turkish, there is a good chance you did not inherit the Turkic part of the admixture. This is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Even if we assume s-he was Bulgarian, we still don't know when they arrived in Alfatlar and from where.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Well, being half Pomak, I have only 2 Pomak matches.

Imagine the situation at 6.25%. Leto is correct in this sense. S-he could be either Bulgarian or Turkish. Even if we assume was Turkish, there is a good chance you did not inherit the Turkic part of the admixture. This is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Even if we assume s-he was Bulgarian, we still don't know when they arrived in Alfatlar and from where.

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If you can, send to me Bulgarian or Bulgarian Turk Gedmatch kits from all regions of Bulgaria you have and I will check if some of them match me on Balkan or Anatolian segments assigned by 23andme

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

If you can, send to me Bulgarian or Bulgarian Turk Gedmatch kits from all regions of Bulgaria you have and I will check if some of them match me on Balkan or Anatolian segments assigned by 23andme

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I sent.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I sent.

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Thank you, I checked every match you sent me and I do not match any Bulgarian or Turk unfortunately to prove anything, maybe if more people from Bulgaria will be tested I will know something

Since my Sephardic ancestry is not known and i confirmed it only by my matches it is possible I am really not 1/16, but 1/32 in case of having Balkan Turkish, because to my knowledge it is more southern shifted population, I think I will know more about it when i will ask my family, i can't assume I have this ancestry unfortunately, because It can not be confirmed, at least now

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I sent.

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I have a question. If Bulgarian Turks moved from Alfatar to Ukraine, why they became Bulgarians by surnames and identity or they were Bulgarians in this case?

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6997124] Имам въпрос. Ако българските турци са се преместили от Алфатар в Украйна, защо са станали българи по фамилии и самоличност или в този случай са били българи? [/ ЦИТАТ]

Dear boy, there are no Turks who have moved to Ukraine. The only Bulgarian population During the Middle Ages the settlement was in a period of prosperity. This area is the center of the Bulgarian kingdom, located between the capitals Pliska and Preslav, and Drustar / in the tenth century Drustar was the Danube residence of the Bulgarian khans and patriarchs /. Remains of a stone fortress in the Kilnik area / military-strategic, administrative and religious center /, medieval settlements and fortresses in the Karaula, Suhata Cheshma areas, as well as a monastic colony along the Kanagyol riverbed - the center of rock monasteries - have been found. dated to the tenth century.
For the epoch of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom in this region there are no serious methodological researches.
According to incompletely confirmed data at the beginning of the Ottoman expansion, the village had more than 700 houses. The earliest document / from 1573-1574 / shows that the population is purely Bulgarian. As such, it is preserved until the Liberation. During the second half of the 15th-17th centuries, significant demographic changes took place in Dobrogea. As a result of the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774, many Bulgarian villages in these lands changed their appearance. Some of the inhabitants of this region emigrated to Russia and Wallachia
In August 1773, during the war, 400 families from the village emigrated to the Russian Empire. The following year, they founded the village of Olshanka in the lands designated for the then-emerging Bug Cossack Army. Disappointed with the barren lands, many Bulgarians decided to return to their homeland, but were repressed and forced to stay in Olshanka. After the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829, settlers from Sliven and Yambol settled in Alfatar. At the time of the liberation from Turkish rule it had 2,039 inhabitants and was among the largest villages in Dobrudzha.

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Originally Posted by PAGANE

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6997124] Имам въпрос. Ако българските турци са се преместили от Алфатар в Украйна, защо са станали българи по фамилии и самоличност или в този случай са били българи? [/ ЦИТАТ]

Dear boy, there are no Turks who have moved to Ukraine. The only Bulgarian population During the Middle Ages the settlement was in a period of prosperity. This area is the center of the Bulgarian kingdom, located between the capitals Pliska and Preslav, and Drustar / in the tenth century Drustar was the Danube residence of the Bulgarian khans and patriarchs /. Remains of a stone fortress in the Kilnik area / military-strategic, administrative and religious center /, medieval settlements and fortresses in the Karaula, Suhata Cheshma areas, as well as a monastic colony along the Kanagyol riverbed - the center of rock monasteries - have been found. dated to the tenth century.
For the epoch of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom in this region there are no serious methodological researches.
According to incompletely confirmed data at the beginning of the Ottoman expansion, the village had more than 700 houses. The earliest document / from 1573-1574 / shows that the population is purely Bulgarian. As such, it is preserved until the Liberation. During the second half of the 15th-17th centuries, significant demographic changes took place in Dobrogea. As a result of the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774, many Bulgarian villages in these lands changed their appearance. Some of the inhabitants of this region emigrated to Russia and Wallachia
In August 1773, during the war, 400 families from the village emigrated to the Russian Empire. The following year, they founded the village of Olshanka in the lands designated for the then-emerging Bug Cossack Army. Disappointed with the barren lands, many Bulgarians decided to return to their homeland, but were repressed and forced to stay in Olshanka. After the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829, settlers from Sliven and Yambol settled in Alfatar. At the time of the liberation from Turkish rule it had 2,039 inhabitants and was among the largest villages in Dobrudzha.

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Kaspias said, village Alfatar was most likely Turkish-Bulgarian or Turkish village. Look at ethnic map of Balkans in 18 century

Deleted

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

I have a question. If Bulgarian Turks moved from Alfatar to Ukraine, why they became Bulgarians by surnames and identity or they were Bulgarians in this case?

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I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

Kaspias said, village Alfatar was most likely Turkish-Bulgarian or Turkish village. Look at ethnic map of Balkans in 18 century

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Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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Could Bulgarians and Turks mix with this village? Many people think no because of confession, but I saw some genetic results from northern Bulgaria and they score some Turkish. Even if one my distant ancestor was for example from Pleven, he mixed with those from Alfatar, because they lived in isolation in Ukraine for almost 200 years and mix with each other

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

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The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.

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Originally Posted by PAGANE

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

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Not exactly.

1. It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
2. There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
3. Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.

But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.





Not exactly.

1. It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
2. There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
3. Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.

But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

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Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

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23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

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You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admix

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admkz

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Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

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It contains Turkic, is it possible my Bulgarian ancestors have 10-20% DNA from Bulgars?