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You have completely untouched "Poles" among the Upper Siliesians imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I was somewhat in an argument with a German nationalist from there (myself being a German nationalist), that completely rejected the applicability of genetic results showing that he and his family had kind of 93% EE at 23andMe (and 2% French & German). Which is above the Polish mean for EE even? However, I know exactly how these folks voted and identified still in 1907. :)
The Saxons of Transylvania also mixed with Székelys as there was a pretty big overlap of territory, at one point belonging to Székelys, the next to Transylvanian Saxons, but also in reverse this happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...9kely_Land.PNG
It looks like in case of Hungary, there was far more admixture of German DNA into Hungarian gene pool than the opposite. Lot of Hungarians have significant German input, but Hungarian input in pre-WW2 Hungarian Germans seems very minor that it's even not relevant. That can be explained by Hungarians being dominant ethnic group in the Panonnian Basin so they absorbed all kind of minorities, while those who identified as German kept to themselves.
It can be explained by the fact that "when you went Hungarian, you didn't go back", meaning, when a German married a Hungarian they basically became culturally Hungarians, also their children, who didn't really learn German anymore. That's how Budapest, once a predominantly German-speaking city in the 19th century only in a few decades became overwhelmingly Hungarian-speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Yes, makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
Yeah, but I consider this tool of 23andMe rather poor. I can see this by my stunning wrong assignments within Germany (showing Bavaria as #1 etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I get this for EE:
https://i.imgur.com/4xu99e4.jpg
Former German regions are always excluded and in light colours in Poland as I could experience, so there is always just Poland proper available. My real little Polish connection with 6.25% with Lodz area isn't even particularly higlighted. The problem for 23andMe regarding Eastern Germans is that they assign EE to them without regarding their areas being EE. This means it's impossible for an Eastern German to get his applicable ancestry area shown at 23andMe. All do get some areas in Poland as weak matches but not even the closest to German area ones like Greater Poland and Western Prussia.
I have another example of Transylvanian Saxon GEDmatch results, check:
Eurogenes K13:
North_Atlantic 39.60 Pct
Baltic 25.27 Pct
West_Med 16.14 Pct
West_Asian 6.41 Pct
East_Med 8.05 Pct
Red_Sea 1.75 Pct
South_Asian 0.84 Pct
East_Asian 0.85 Pct
Siberian 0.67 Pct
Amerindian 0.09 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.29 Pct
Eurogenes K15:
Population
North_Sea 27.45 Pct
Atlantic 24.09 Pct
Baltic 14.05 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.36 Pct
West_Med 11.78 Pct
West_Asian 4.43 Pct
East_Med 5.89 Pct
Red_Sea 1.42 Pct
South_Asian 0.59 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.16 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.19 Pct
And here is an example of Banat Swabian result, check:
Eurogenes K13:
Population
North_Atlantic 38.44 Pct
Baltic 25.34 Pct
West_Med 17.36 Pct
West_Asian 6.95 Pct
East_Med 9.84 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.33 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.56 Pct
Amerindian 1.05 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.13 Pct
Eurogenes K15:
Population
North_Sea 26.46 Pct
Atlantic 24.65 Pct
Baltic 12.03 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.96 Pct
West_Med 13.01 Pct
West_Asian 5.43 Pct
East_Med 6.71 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
What about German-speakers as of ca. 1830 for example? I've seen census results for every county of Upper Silesia since 1828 and there were Germans in all counties already at that time (if you go back to pre-1740 then maybe there were German-free areas at that time).Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
What exactly is the importance of year 1907 that you use it so often?Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Those are same that I posted :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I unfortunately don't recall "Greece & Balkan" figures. I was focussed on EE, not being aware at that time that "G & B" also contains actual EE. But I guess I would have noticed notable "G & B" if it would have shown up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
He does seem mixed with the locals:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.3% South_Dutch + 24.7% Moldavian @ 1.12
K15 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.5% South_Dutch + 32.5% Hungarian @ 1.7
=====
Banat Swabian K15:
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.5% South_Dutch + 28.5% Serbian @ 2.53
I already posted his breakdown (very minor EE input), so I don't see your point. K15 is trash for eastern Europeans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Plus you are using extremely outdated Oracle which pumped "eastern" input.
Neither was their German side closest to south Dutch. It was more southern.
There were elections to the Reichstag where the Polish national party in these areas got majority of votes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
A good question. I can just refer to Upper Silesian DNA test results, that got known to me. Maybe these German speakers were Eastern Germans and hence 50% EE anyhow. And/or they were protestant and did not mix with the Poles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
The Upper Silesian German nationalist I refrerred to in turn referred to numerous medieval German settlements in these ethnic Polish parts of Upper Silesia. And these settlements actually were notable. But the Hussitic wars seeem to have stroken the Germans hard. Germans seem to have withdrawn and consolidated in Lower Silesia at that time. Both from cities and the rural area. Lower Silesia itself had problems with covering all agrigable land with Germans due to the Hussitic wars and made good offers in that aspect, which have attracted a lot of rural German settlers from Upper Silesia. So the Hussitic wars seem to have widely de-Germanised Upper Silesia (except the known old pure German parts of it like Neiße, Neustadt etc.).
Regarding Banat Swabians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_SwabiansQuote:
A small group can be traced to Middle Germany.
Middle Germany is modern day east Germany. I have some ancestry from Banat, and one of German surnames in my family tree peaks in upper Saxony, for example.
Thus some Slavic is to be expected. However they are like all Germans in former Hungary overwhelmingly SW Germans.
The mentioned Upper Silesian got this LM Genetics similarity map (cf. the contrast to Lower Silesia and arbitrary other East German areas!):Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
https://i.imgur.com/tnGDp17.jpg
You must be joking, and this is what Lukasz is using as DE_Oberschlesien? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
If you think about it, it doesn't even matter what Lukasz uses for Upper Silesia. This guy independently of that gets all these further similarities seen on the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
(Lukasz may even have used ethnic Poles for Upper Silesia both from what was interwar Poland and German Empire. But as I said, you can mentally erase the testee's result for Upper Silesia and watch all the remaing ones.)
The danube swabian assimilation started in the 19. century, when the magyarization happened. Before that we can talk about "pure" danube swabians, but after that definitely not, and we are talking about modern populations. My mom came from a danube swabian village near Budapest, and he is half german half hungarian, i visit my grandmother too very often and local danube swabians are mixing with hungarians as well.
Who were the original danube swabians? Catholic germans from Austria, Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Rheinland etc who migrated to central parts of Hungary, it was just a generic name for these various germans, used by hungarians. Teutone as catholic german, would be danube swabian here because danube swabians are descedants of catholic germans who migrated here and Teutone would be in this category. And no, there is no time limit of this german migration, because its continuous until the present day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7x7IG3i5Y
After a while they will identify themselves as danube swabians (just like in the past) because everyone use this word for local germans. And nobody will ask that "when you family came to Hungary? Not the 18-19. century? Hmm sorry then you are not danube swabian", nobody will say that. My father was 100% bavarian, he was born in Germany and everyone called him danube swabian in Budapest, later he started to identify himself danube swabian. My majority german ancestry is bavarian, so i can't be danube swabian because of it or my father side is a new generation german migrant? Bullshit, i'm danube swabian as well, because this ethnicity is different from others, because we were always descedants of verious german migrants, and we were always mixed with many different german roots. An average danube swabian is 1/4 austrian, 1/4 bavarian, 1/4 other german and 1/4 hungarian. And nobody said that every german was danube swabian in the historical Hungary, but if someone migrated to the central parts of Hungary, they became danube swabian.
Someone mentioned folk songs, danube swabian dialect etc, do you guys know how many danube swabian can speak the local german accent? NOBODY, except some 70-80 years old people. I also know just some word, thats all. Everyone use Hochdeutsch. So these things are not conditions to being danube swabian. As i said 99% of danube swabians can't speak the local dialect, hard to belive that danube swabians from Germany or USA can speak it or they feel any togetherness with this land. And im not talking about these 80 years old grannies and grandfathers who live in these countries and remember for Hungary, but the rest of them has no any such identity, but they were assimilated into the local german community.
And i don't feel mysef as "tragic remnant", its insult. We are the ones who keep the german culture in Hungary, we eat the stifolder, drink the günzer wines, we are going on a trip in Pilisch, Balaton etc. These "real" (lol) danube swabians from Germany has no idea about these things, except some older. I think they are the tragic remnants, not us.
Kind of "Once you go black, you never come back" (Quote from the mulatto-attracted German tennis player Boris Becker)? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
But yes, there was a big divergence in ethnic policies between the Austrian and the Hungarain parts of the Empire. The Hungarians Magyarized others intensely.
^^^I can say how it was with Danube Swabians in Slavonia (eastern Croatia).
They lived in separate, fully German villages, and they did not mix either with Croats, neither with Slovaks or Hungarians, let alone Serbs or Rusyns. Despite of being Catholic. They were very closed rural community and many never even learned Croatian language. However, there were many Germans (some children or grandchildren of these Danube Swabian settlers) who went into bigger cities like Osijek (Esseg) or Zagreb (Agram) and those were assimilated, mixed with Croats, Magyars, Czechs etc.
Rural Swabians were even kind of ghettoized population, they lived with other Germans, spoke German and kept to themselves. During WW2 many of them joined the SS and they felt completely German.
After the war many were murdered in concentration camps and some fled, and those who survived were deported to Austria and west Germany.
It affected rural Swabians the most, entire villages were emptied, while urban Swabians who were often much more mixed and assimilated remained. Most of German ancestry in eastern Europeans is from such mixed people while those "real" and unmixed Germans left or were expelled. This is only way to explain why are they still heavily west German genetically today, after centuries in foreign lands.
In Hungary assimilation was greater, but still what I described applies. Rural Swabians were pretty much Germans until 1945, even politically. It's city and townsfolk people who mixed and assimilated, villagers not really.
Representatives of Transylvanian Saxons also supported unification of Transylvania with Romania against Hungarian interests.
During WW2 Banat was directly occupied by Germany and did not re-joined to Hungary. I assume local Germans preferred it so.
A valuable hint. I was never aware of that and it at a first glance seems surprising that this part was not given to befriended Hungary while more far-fetched areas were. And of course it can not have been in favour of this hardly existent "Serbia". This map actually depics some kind of German self government in the Banat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
https://i.imgur.com/DIpnqR2.png
^^^^ Yes, Hungary annexed Bacska region where lived large Hungarian population. But both Banat and Bascka were part of pre-Trianon Hungary. It's interesting how Banat was de facto under local German self rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_(1941%E2%80%931944)
That does not seem like assimilated population to me.Quote:
The local German population agitated for the German government to establish a large German state in the Danube and Tisza valleys, expressing annoyance that the Bačka and Syrmia regions in the west were awarded to Hungary and Croatia respectively after the collapse of Yugoslavia.
The Banat Germans subsequently used every means at their disposal to strengthen their position compared to that of other nationalities, and to foster the development of German national feeling through the establishment of youth and adult organizations, and setting up its own school system.
Half Transylvanian Saxon, half from Hessen (friend of Croatian user Ljubic who lives in Germany) No traces of EE admixture.
Distance to: Hesse+TransylvaniaCode:Hessen+Transylvania,45.34,23.43,14.84,4.26,6.44,2.35,0.39,0.31,0.96,0.77,0.6,0.3,0
1.98360782 Dutch_South
2.48927700 Flemish
2.49717841 Belgian
3.53345440 German_West
3.62723035 Afrikaner
4.60154322 French_Northwest
4.81070681 English_Southeast
5.14112828 French_Northeast
5.17198221 German
5.49953634 German_South
5.55874086 English_Midlands
5.65795016 English
5.68176029 Dutch
5.89353035 English_Southwest
6.05508051 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12103749 Cornish
6.36000000 Dutch_Central
6.51582689 German_Northwest
6.52882072 French_Alsace
6.60467259 English_North
7.15453003 Welsh
7.18508177 Swiss_German2
7.49580549 Swiss_German
7.51538422 North_German
7.89150176 Orcadian
Target: Hesse+Transylvania
Distance: 1.6423% / 1.64234933 | R2P
51.3 Pennsylvania_Dutch
48.7 Dutch_Central
Thanks for much info. No insult intended. I agree that these "diaspora" Donau Swabians are a tragic remnant and they will not remain with that identity, as well as they did not have it, before they once went to Hungary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
But I think you will agree on that your background with the German "refresh" from Bavaria making you have 3/4 German ancestry in that generation is not representative. It's more like with your mother with 1/2 and then with 1/4 in the next generation for many and that's it.
On the search for "real" Danube Swabians I allow myself to introduce new competitors for that title: Just travel up the Danube till the proximity of it's spring. There you are in Swabia and are surrounded by real Danube Swabians! :)
Fun fact: A notable proportion of them came also from the Danube in what is today Hungary... As Quads or whatever other Suebic (it's the same word als Swabians) tribes. (Some of them went on and founded that Suebic kingdom at Braga (in NW Iberia)).
I didn't say my background is representative for danube swabians, but it's true that modern danube swabians are 3/4 german (with various german ancestry) + 1/4 hungarian. The amount of this various german ancestry is irrelevant because danube swabians have always been mixed germans, so if a danube swabian has 3/4 bavarian ancestry it doesn't make him more or less danube swabian if other is 3/4 austrian and they are not less danube swabian if someone is 1/3 bavarian + 1/3 austrian + 1/3 swabian, doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
I don't want to go to Swabia, because they are not danube swabians and most danube swabians are not even swabian in the reality, its an unique german ethnicity. Only the name is similar, but swabians and danube swabians are two different german subgroup. I don't feel any closer commonship with them. Average danube swabian feel themselves closest to east germans from DDR because of common post soviet past.
Richmonbread
Generic Anglo-Irish
Catholic Balkaner
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Septentrion
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Centurion
My statementQuote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
"On the search for "real" Danube Swabians I allow myself to introduce new competitors for that title: Just travel up the Danube till the proximity of it's spring. There you are in Swabia and are surrounded by real Danube Swabians! :) "
was a joke, Blondie.
^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Apparently not always, because I score Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship (which was part of East Prussia before WW2).
As for my French&German part - I also have Bavaria as #1.