Even if Gypsies were invaders 1000 years ago their descendants wouldnt be today - they would be native born. But they were not invaders more like refugees, invader has a different meaning and usually means that they want to subjugate the native population. Or are colonial american still immigrants even if their ancestors moved 500 years ago to the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
2. Soldiering as SocializationQuote:
Originally Posted by Varda
The Roma as Serbian combatants were mentioned in
both of the Serbian uprisings organized in the 19th
century (in 1804–1813 and in 1815). For example, the
contemporary Vuk Stefanovic Karadžić wrote that “the
Gypsies had their own commander during the uprising”
(Acković, 2009, p. 91). In addition, the famous Serbian
poet, Sima Milutinović Sarajlija, wrote about the heroism of the Roma combatants. The first Serbian uprising
brought the Roma civil rights recognition, equality before the courts, freedom of religion, respect for customs
and traditions as well as land heritage. However, these
measures disappeared with the collapse of the Serbian
insurgency. The Roma were offered similar rights after
the second Serbian uprising, in 1815. However, it appears that this time the reforms did not bring palpable results. The historian Vladimir Stojančević explained
this as the result of a weaker Roma presence in the
rebel forces and its leadership than was the case in
the previous uprising (Jakšić & Bašić, 2005, pp. 20–21).
The Roma reappeared as Serbian fighters during the
turbulence of 1848. They were part of the forces sent
from the Serbian Principality to Serbs living in Southern
Hungary. Atanasije-Tasa Ivanović from the Serbian town
of Jagodina, the man responsible for tax collection from
the Serbian Roma, was ordered to form an exclusively
Roma outfit:
With 850 skilful Gypsies, along with zurlas and drums,
he continued during the freezing cold in December
1848. There were few of the Jagodina Gypsies, up
to 300, but others from Kragujevac, Pozarevac joined
them along the way, following Tasa’s order, which had
to be executed unconditionally. Sabac, Smederevo
and other places. There were up to 900 of them near
Višnjica on the Danube. It was an unusual and very
colourful army: One group (from Jagodina) wore the
ordinary clothes, with pistols and holsters, curved
sabres; others had more beautiful, colourful garbs
with a scarf around their heads, with large belts, in
which the guns were kept, together with the sharp
knives, a whip with a lead top, and with rifles on their
shoulders; on their feet they wore cavalry boots with
spurs; their banners had various flags. (Cvetić, 1910,
pp. 38–43)
Once across the Danube, fierce fighting ensued with
the Hungarian army near the town of Arad. It has been
recorded that 15 of the Serbian Roma soldiers were killed
in this battle (Cvetić, 1910, pp. 38–43).
In 1883, a standing army with compulsory military
service was introduced in the Kingdom of Serbia. This
was one of many measures aimed at modernizing the
state which had gained its independence in 1878. How
did the Roma fit into this system, which was based on
state bureaucracy and, above all, on the need for accurate addresses and years of birth? At first, the Serbian
authorities were tolerant and aware that a number of
Roma were clearly beyond the army’s reach. For the time
being only those Roma with permanent addresses and
valid documents were called up. However, the state decided to recruit also the so-called ‘wandering Roma.’ In
October 1891, the Serbian War Ministry made a decision
that would significantly affect the way of life of the Roma
in Serbia. It was a direct and dramatic interference of the
state in the traditional way of life of native Roma:
Social Inclusion, 2020, Volume 8, Issue 2, Pages 277–285 278
Many Gypsy vagrants avoid service in the unit and in
the reserve. The reason is that as wanderers they cannot be processed through the census book in any municipality, so they are not recruited as such. In order
to stop the waste of such material for the army, I order that all Gypsy vagrants, from 20 to 30 years of age,
be recruited every year and sent exclusively to the infantry. Recruiting, reviewing and deploying personnel
should be performed on the fifth day, after the other
recruits have already been sent to the infantry. During
the recruitment, there should be an interview of the
Gypsy family in question, regarding the recruit’s most
frequent residence or place of work. When deployed,
the district commanders will report to the battalion
commander concerned, for each recruit, where each
person will reside after serving. Upon dismissal, the
battalion commander will report to the regiment in
question about the trained soldiers, who will now be
assigned to it as reservists.
As every year the infantry command issues a special
call summoning its recruits, the commanders all regiment districts, as soon as they find out that such call
has been published, will order to the administrative
authorities in their area that on that day…all municipal authorities are obliged to bring to the headquarters all the Gypsy vagrants who are found in their district. Of these, all able-bodied persons who have not
yet served in the military and who have not reached
the age of 30 should be listed and trained.
The age of each Gypsy will be evaluated by the doctor attached to the district commander in charge—
unless other documents are to be presented by the
Gypsies themselves. (“Propisi, naredjenja i objašnjenja,” 1891)
It is hard to estimate how efficient this measure was. It
is reasonable to assume that it definitely increased the
numbers within the Serbian army’s contingent. It also
brought about changes in the lives of many Roma. The
long two-year stay in the army acted also as socialization process. Namely, one of the elementary activities in
the army was the literacy course. On the other hand, the
state was trying to transform all Roma into more permanent residents. It is important to note that the infantry
was the only branch of the army reserved for the ‘Roma
wanderers.’ This type of soldiering did not ask for any
particular pre-existing skills unlike the artillery or engineering. And unlike the cavalry, no particular property
(a horse) was needed.
In 1912 the state summoned its Roma reservists to
arms. This was the First Balkan War. Among the hundreds of thousands of Serb soldiers ready to cross the
Serb-Ottoman border, there were many Roma. One of
them, a soldier named Ahmet Ademović, became part of
Serbian military legends. Firstly, his performance at war
shows that many Roma men acted in an exemplary manner in Serbian uniform. His biography also speaks a lot
about patterns used when depicting Roma heroism, and
more broadly, it offers insights into the wider trends in
remembering the actions of Serbian troops during the
1912–1918 period. It is not clear who was the first to
write down the story of Ahmet Ademović. In 1989 the military enthusiast Tomislav Vlahović published a book dedicated to the soldiers who had earned the highest Serbian
military decoration: the Karadjordje Star. Naturally, he
mentioned Ademović’s story as well. By doing so he secured the preservation of the story for future decades.
However, he wrote down two versions of the story which
were circulating at the time.
The first version of these was that Ademović had a
crucial role in the Kumanovo battle of October 1912. This
was the initial and most important clash of the Serbian
and the Ottoman troops in the First Balkan War. The battle did not begin well for the Serbs who did not anticipate that they would run into the core of the Ottoman
troops so soon after entering Ottoman territory. Vlahović
described how, at the most critical moment of the battle,
Ademović gave a trumpet signal for the assault instead
of the retreat—as he had been previously ordered by his
commander. Ademović did so because he estimated, on
his own initiative, that the moment was ripe for counterattack. Ultimately, his decision reversed the battlefield
situation. In the second version, Ademović’s action was
even more audacious. It was claimed that Ademović was
decorated because he actually disguised himself before
the battle. Wearing Ottoman uniform, he went into the
enemy camp where he deceived the enemy by playing
a false signal—a trumpet sign for withdrawal (Vlahović,
1989, pp. 85, 421).
Even with all the shortcomings of the Ottoman
forces in 1912, something like this seems highly unlikely.
Moreover, the idea that a battle involving tens of thousands of soldiers could be decided by a single private reveals a highly romanticised pattern of interpreting past.
There is no doubt that Ademović earned his decoration
in October 1912, but whatever he did, the post war storytellers transformed his exploits into a powerful myth.
Within this myth we see certain roles reserved for the
Serbian Roma. Moreover, these roles corresponded to
their perceived peacetime characteristics. According to
that pattern, the Roma were bold, skilful, cunning and
good in deception. In the eyes of the Serbian storytellers
it appeared as if the features attributed to the Roma, and
which were criminalized in peacetime, suddenly became
desirable at times of war as they provided a critical advantage to the Serbian army.
There were other Roma who secured high military
decorations. One of them was Rustem Sejdić. Again, like
Ademović, he was a unit’s trumpeter. The popular story
described his deed in similar tone to that of Ademović.
Namely, his unit had participated in the famous battle
for the Kajmakcalan heights in 1916, where on his own
initiative, he gave a signal for the critical attack. He also
played false trumpet signals in order to spread confusion
Social Inclusion, 2020, Volume 8, Issue 2, Pages 277–285 279
within the Bulgarian units who were about to launch a
fresh attack (Dimitrijević, 2015). Again, this is the stuff of
legend. One man had shown initiative and had resolved
the colossal carnage. As in the previous case, the Roma
soldier was depicted as bold, artful but manipulative.
The last known Roma who won the Karadjordje Star
was also, like Ademović, from the southern Serbian town
of Leskovac. His name was Amet Ametović. In the popular version of events, he was an expert in throwing
hand grenades (Ivanović, 2016). However, his case study
shows how huge were the differences between facts
and popular accounts that spread after the battle. What
differentiated Ametović’s case from the two previously
mentioned biographies was the fact that Ametović gave
two interviews to the Yugoslav press, providing a sober
account of his fighting days and his accomplishments.
Firstly, he provided details lacking in the previous case
studies—such as the name of his unit, and his commanders ranging from the regimental down to the unit level.
He also explained his specific duties as well the actions
which had earned him the decoration.
Explaining his exploit Ametović did not provide any
breath-taking story. He was a corporal and was responsible for leading patrols on scouting missions. This happened in Western Serbia in the autumn of 1914, near the
border town of Krupanj. Ametović’s unit was involved in
heavy fighting near one notorious position, the Captain’s
Fountain (Kapetanova cesma) close to the Drina River. He
said the following:
We go at night and then we stumble upon the body
of an enemy soldier. I stab him. The stiff human body
does not move….I whisper to my men: Don’t be afraid,
it’s only a corpse. And that was our job during the days
and during the nights….I fought for the King and for
the Fatherland. We all fought heroically….However,
the commander in June 1915 gathered our company
together and read out: Amet Ametović is decorated
with the Karadjordje Star; he then gave me this decoration. (“Jedini Ciganin nosilac Karadjordjeve zvezde
zivi u Leskovcu,” 1936; italics added)
He received his decoration during a pause on the Serbian
front in summer 1915. His story, without any spectacular
actions sounds realistic, underlying war’s brutality. As he
described it, it was a prosaic and merciless business while
the very decoration was the result of continuous activity
by the entire squad.
Roma civilians had often been mentioned in the
memories of contemporaries but their presence in soldiers’ diaries was almost exclusively linked with the darkest sides of the war. Survival for many Roma was extremely difficult even in peacetime, but in wartime it became very precarious. The most vulnerable category of
the population saw the battleground as a place where
its limited survival resources could be replenished.
Journalists following the operations of the Serbian
army near Shkoder recorded the following scene where
the Roma ‘cleaned up’ the battle ground. It took place in
February 1913:
The Serbs had around one thousand dead after their
attack on the Brdica positions. They all remained on
the field bellow the hill and they were still not able
to bury them. Gypsies are usually used for this work,
they gladly do so in the hope of booty. Turkish soldiers
have already deprived the dead of their weapons, but
there are still some left and the Gypsies are back with
shoes, belts, caps, handkerchiefs and underwear. In
their camp, near the bazaar, they later share the loot.
Tonight, four Gypsy women left their camp to wait for
their husbands, and when they spotted them, they
went to meet them. At that moment, a shrapnel, coming over from Shkoder, burst over their heads killing
them all. (“Iz Skadarske epopeje,” 1913)
3. As Soldiers in World War I
In 1914, the Roma were called up again. The Swiss
criminologist who came to Serbia, Rudolph Archibald
Reiss, described a scene he witnessed in the autumn
of 1914 which faithfully exemplifies shared patriotism
and tragedy. It also however illustrates the naivety with
which some Roma approached modern warfare, expecting it to be an extremely brief encounter between two
armies after which things would quickly go back to normal. This happened in the town of Valjevo:
The streets in front of the Sekulić Hotel, which
is on the corner, are full of people and wagons.
Everywhere, next to the walls, sit the middle-aged
peasants who come to report to their units belonging
to the third levy. Waiting to come before the control
commission, they eat and take a sunbathe. Among
them, there are also Gypsies with their bronze faces
like Indians. They are surrounded by their family members, women and children, who carry supplies. One
very old Gypsy woman, with a pipe in her mouth
which is almost solely composed of the tobacco chamber, sits on the doorstep of a house. They tell me
she accompanied her son three days ago, he left with
his regiment, and she is waiting for him to return.
Poor grandmother, you will probably wait in vain! This
world is silent, serious, but in the bright eyes of this
people I see that they are determined to defend their
country’s independence and are not afraid to sacrifice
their lives for this. (Reiss, 1928/1991, p. 11)
There are numerous mentions of the Roma as part of
military music too. The Gypsy band is mentioned as a
standard feature in celebrating military victory. Here, by
focusing on the Roma minority it is also possible to see
various elements of combat culture. One officer, Mladen
Zujović, wrote about the atmosphere after the Battle
of Kolubara, when in 1914 Austro-Hungarian troops had
been expelled from Serbia for the second time.
Serbian Roma Soldiers, 1912–1918 - Cogitatio Presshttps://www.cogitatiopress.com › article › download
von D Šarenac · 2020 · Zitiert von: 3 — Gypsies had their own commander during the uprising”. (Acković, 2009, p. 91). In addition, the famous Serbian.
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Where did Serbian Gypsies come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Varda
The first reference to gypsies in Serbia is found in a 1348 document, by which Serbian emperor Stefan Dušan donated some gypsy slaves to a monastery in Prizren. In the 15th century, Romani migrations from Hungary are mentioned. In 1927, a Serbian-Romani humanitarian organization was founded.
Okay so your problem is english is the lingua franca and you dont want to write in hungaria because nobody will understand right? Okay then i have a great idea, we will debate in english and hungarian at same time. Firstly you write your comment in english and after that hungarian, i will do same, so everyone will understand everything, thats okay? Just speak hungarian Turul speak hungarian! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
Just post in whatever language you want and he will reply if he wants to. But this thread has been seriously derailed with politics, Gypsies, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondie
That's what I was talking about. Like it or not, but you cannot deport a population that has been in the region for 600+ years. The truth is the Gypsies don't really have a homeland, they are eternal nomads. Indians don't need them either, they have 100s of millions (!) of their own poor and malnourished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer
No one considers even to deport second or third generation immigrants who are native born citizens, but they want to deport gypsies, it was estimated that gypsies are 32 generations in Europe. I read that somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Encouraging remigration of unassimilable foreign non-whites is one of the core ideas of the Identitarians which I would wholeheartedly support but with the Gypsies they really have nowhere to go. Turkish people have Turkey, the Pakistanis have Pakistan, the Africans have Africa and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer
I think it is more politically correct and more people do it to say you want to deport gypsies or even kill them, i saw on youtube comments like "hitler did a good job putting the gypos in concentration camps" then about anyone else. But in general you are right about the political ideologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Yes, why do you need to prononunce this? What an eastern bloc ex-kommie have to do with Turkish people of western europe? Do you think you have powers to have a word on them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Congratulations, you got me write this post. People like you shouldnt exist. All problems come from low-IQ backwards people like you.