Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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Originally Posted by Sorcelow

Is there any explanation for why this haplogroup reaches such high percentages in southern Albania?

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup_I2a.gif

I would think that its the leftovers from Kutmichevitsa Slavs

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Stati...tonen%20-1.gif

Either that or its somehow native?

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There is very few I2a1 in Albania.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

The I2a1b in Slavs originally came from the Hunter-Gatheres of NW Europe so it migrated east into east Europe, I would say that the expansion of I2a1b-Din into the Balkans occurred around Poland or Ukraine

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That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Maybe they weren't there in past, but they are now :)

Modern Slavic men in Pripyat area are around 20%+ I2-dinaric, higher concentration than usual among northern Slavs.

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I know about now, but i wonder what was before...

Slavic archeological cultures are complicated story, therefore we can't say anything for sure. Also that I2a-Din wasn't part of Zarubintsy culture.

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Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic

That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!

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I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

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Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic

That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!

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judging by slavonic placenames in greece and albania, i suspect an origin more precisely at western poland and moravia. Although Based on current distribution though, the odds of it being swept up in migration era movements is tempting to believe.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

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Bastarnae are good candidates for such one! They're classified as Celto-Germanic, but perhaps they were an individual community once... It's not certain.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

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West Balkan Vlachs.. who got Latin language from Romans and were Roman themselves are predominantly I2a1b CTS 10228

Now Latin language was official on Western Balkans up to 6th century even if Western Court of Empire died in Dalmatia under Julius Nepos, and you are telling me
that Slavs came in 4th century and learned Latin language then .. they had to learn Slavic language all over again?

Doesn't make any sense.

IF I2a1b people on Western Balkans knew Latin in 2nd,3rd,4th century A.D. then of course they are NATIVE and non-Slavic.

In 1850 A.D. Serbia had 120.000 Latin speakers, while in 8th-10th century Latin speakers were majority and majority were I2a1b.

Look at Romania, 28% (Majority) are I2a1b, rest goes to R1a, and minority to others.... do you think that R1a were Latin speakers? Lol.

All those Latin speakers came from Roman Empire and had a Roman Citizenship.

R1b people who nowdays rule Italy.. those people of course are not Italians, even Romans recognized that in 10th century when they declared so.

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Originally Posted by Bosniensis

West Balkan Vlachs.. who got Latin language from Romans and were Roman themselves are predominantly I2a1b CTS 10228

Now Latin language was official on Western Balkans up to 6th century even if Western Court of Empire died in Dalmatia under Julius Nepos, and you are telling me
that Slavs came in 4th century and learned Latin language then .. they had to learn Slavic language all over again?

Doesn't make any sense.

IF I2a1b people on Western Balkans knew Latin in 2nd,3rd,4th century A.D. then of course they are NATIVE and non-Slavic.

In 1850 A.D. Serbia had 120.000 Latin speakers, while in 8th-10th century Latin speakers were majority and majority were I2a1b.

Look at Romania, 28% (Majority) are I2a1b, rest goes to R1a, and minority to others.... do you think that R1a were Latin speakers? Lol.

All those Latin speakers came from Roman Empire and had a Roman Citizenship.

R1b people who nowdays rule Italy.. those people of course are not Italians, even Romans recognized that in 10th century when they declared so.

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Vlachs are just Latin speaking people from that region so they could be Latin speaking Slavs, Latin speaking Albanians, Latin speaking Greeks etc so their genetics depends on their region, in Albania they closely resemble Albanians and are mainly a mix of J2b2 and R1b-BY611 suggesting that they are probably just Albanians who took up Latin. Romanians are heavily Slavicized genetically and their I2a1b is from Slavs and increased in numbers due to better breeding chances. Romans themselves were most probably mainly R1b-U152

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Vlachs are just Latin speaking people from that region so they could be Latin speaking Slavs, Latin speaking Albanians, Latin speaking Greeks etc so their genetics depends on their region, in Albania they closely resemble Albanians and are mainly a mix of J2b2 and R1b-BY611 suggesting that they are probably just Albanians who took up Latin. Romanians are heavily Slavicized genetically and their I2a1b is from Slavs and increased in numbers due to better breeding chances. Romans themselves were most probably mainly R1b-U152

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Vlachs were speaking Latin through many many generations.

I ask you a simple question:

From WHO Vlachs (I2a1b people) learned Latin language ?

If Slavs came in 6th why would they Learn LATIN when we see that Vlachs have been Slavicized?

Also Vlachs could NOT speak Slavic language.

Please explain...

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Originally Posted by Bosniensis

Vlachs were speaking Latin through many many generations.

I ask you a simple question:

From WHO Vlachs (I2a1b people) learned Latin language ?

If Slavs came in 6th why would they Learn LATIN when we see that Vlachs have been Slavicized?

Also Vlachs could NOT speak Slavic language.

Please explain...

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Vlachs aren't I2a1b people, as I said before their haplogroups depend on the region they are from. They learnt Latin via the Roman empire and it's influence but the fact that they don't have the R1b clade found among the Italic people suggests that they aren't the direct descendant of Romans themselves. They could easily adopt a Vlach/Latin identity for various of reasons such as an attempt to integrate into a local community if that community has a majority Vlach population or because Latin was a more appealing language such was the case for the Ostrogoths who adopted Latin when they established their kingdom and are believed to be the source of the I1-Z63 in the Balkans. Vlachs to this day speak Slavic in certain areas an example of this are certain tribes who identify as Serb today such as the Krici

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Vlachs aren't I2a1b people, as I said before their haplogroups depend on the region they are from. They learnt Latin via the Roman empire and it's influence but the fact that they don't have the R1b clade found among the Italic people suggests that they aren't the direct descendant of Romans themselves. They could easily adopt a Vlach/Latin identity for various of reasons such as an attempt to integrate into a local community if that community has a majority Vlach population or because Latin was a more appealing language such was the case for the Ostrogoths who adopted Latin when they established their kingdom and are believed to be the source of the I1-Z63 in the Balkans. Vlachs to this day speak Slavic in certain areas an example of this are certain tribes who identify as Serb today such as the Krici

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All Vlachs are predominantly I2a1b People.. go check it yourself.

Vlachs spoke Latin language in 5th century not Romance language, also they spoke Latin when modern Italians spoke Germanic languages.

Lombards, Normans and others (who live in Italy) adopted Romance language in 10th century, standardized in 12th, while Vlachs (that were encountered by Slavs) existed and spoke Latin in 5th century.

Slavs had special agreements with Vlachs in 6th century, Vlachs had their own local government and everything but were subjugated and governed by Slavs.

But you are entitled to your own opinion, I disagree with you.

Also Vlachs are Romans, Poles even today call people of Rome = Vlachs.

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Originally Posted by Bosniensis

All Vlachs are predominantly I2a1b People.. go check it yourself.

Vlachs spoke Latin language in 5th century not Romance language, also they spoke Latin when modern Italians spoke Germanic languages.

Lombards, Normans and others (who live in Italy) adopted Romance language in 10th century, standardized in 12th, while Vlachs (that were encountered by Slavs) existed and spoke Latin in 5th century.

Slavs had special agreements with Vlachs in 6th century, Vlachs had their own local government and everything but were subjugated and governed by Slavs.

But you are entitled to your own opinion, I disagree with you.

Also Vlachs are Romans, Poles even today call people of Rome = Vlachs.

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No they aren't, the Vlachs of Albania and Macedonia were mainly J2b2 and R1b-BY611. If Vlachs were Roman settlers then R1b-U152 would have been a common haplogroup in them but it isn't, Vlachs aren't an ethnic group it's just a term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

No they aren't, the Vlachs of Albania and Macedonia were mainly J2b2 and R1b-BY611. If Vlachs were Roman settlers then R1b-U152 would have been a common haplogroup in them but it isn't, Vlachs aren't an ethnic group it's just a term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans

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So what, J2 people are Anatolian Hellenes (mostly) and are recognized as Ionian Greeks so it is logical that they are designated as "Vlachs".
Even Greeks were designated as Vlachs by Slavs. Everyone who spoke Latin or Greek was "Vlach" to Slavs.

Only J2, I2,EV13, G2 people were Native Europeans... R1b, R1a were minority, non-existant up to 5th century A.D.

Germanic people are Majority R1b. Germanic people were who are nowdays majority in France, Italy, England, Germany were considered as completely Alien people in Europe.

You know what your problem is?

You can't believe that a Roman People and Civilization could be destroyed up to such magnitude that only Romania, Western Balkans is what is left of their civilization and people.

But it is. Modern Europe has nothing to do with Old Europe.

Celts were I2, Italy was I2, J2, G2..etc... R people were minority or tribes that were fighting Rome.

Even those timeframes you are quoting "10.000 year old, 5.000 year old" all incorrect... Noah lived 6000 years ago not 30.000 years ago.

But how can you learn about Euroepans when Europeans have been destroyed? You think that Italians, French will tell you what happened?

The last 500 years, everything has been done to erase Roman Hellenic civilization from existance... "byzantium" name, Roman historians proclaimed lunatics etc..

This is my firm belief, and you will see in 20, 30 years... that everything is a lie..... Conquerors write and invent history, not loosers.

You are free to belive as I say whatever you want... I won't.. I have my opinion and I think I am right.

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Originally Posted by Bosniensis

So what, J2 people are Anatolian Hellenes (mostly) and are recognized as Ionian Greeks so it is logical that they are designated as "Vlachs".
Even Greeks were designated as Vlachs by Slavs. Everyone who spoke Latin or Greek was "Vlach" to Slavs.

Only J2, I2,EV13, G2 people were Native Europeans... R1b, R1a were minority, non-existant up to 5th century A.D.

Germanic people are Majority R1b. Germanic people were who are nowdays majority in France, Italy, England, Germany were considered as completely Alien people in Europe.

You know what your problem is?

You can't believe that a Roman People and Civilization could be destroyed up to such magnitude that only Romania, Western Balkans is what is left of their civilization and people.

But it is. Modern Europe has nothing to do with Old Europe.

Celts were I2, Italy was I2, J2, G2..etc... R people were minority or tribes that were fighting Rome.

Even those timeframes you are quoting "10.000 year old, 5.000 year old" all incorrect... Noah lived 6000 years ago not 30.000 years ago.

But how can you learn about Euroepans when Europeans have been destroyed? You think that Italians, French will tell you what happened?

The last 500 years, everything has been done to erase Roman Hellenic civilization from existance... "byzantium" name, Roman historians proclaimed lunatics etc..

This is my firm belief, and you will see in 20, 30 years... that everything is a lie..... Conquerors write and invent history, not loosers.

You are free to belive as I say whatever you want... I won't.. I have my opinion and I think I am right.

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I know that your trolling man. Anyways the J2 that Vlachs have is in no way Hellenic, it's Illyrian/Albanian as it's J2b2. Also if R1b and R1a aren't European then I guess G, J and E aren't either.