So Celts were North Europeans after all?

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Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley

Well they definitely aren't from the West and Irish, Scots and Welsh don't appear to be very similar to Continental Celts at all. Awaiting more Gaul samples but as i've always said Celts appear very varied.

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Everything that you've said does not contradict west-east expansion

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It's almost like people were named Celts just because they weren't Romans or Greeks. :p

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:eek: No, Romans and Greeks gave very clear explanations who were the Celts

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Originally Posted by renaissance12

This is the "face" of a celtic GALATI as seen from "greek" point of view III century B.C.

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It's not known what pigmentation has this type, but very similar to highly reduced Borreby, western European type

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Originally Posted by Fantomas

Everything that you've said does not contradict west-east expansion


:eek: No, Romans and Greeks gave very clear explanations who were the Celts

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Well British Isles populations appear to be just Bronze Age Bell Beaker. Of course there was some input from some other groups but Insular Celts appear overwhelmingly Bell Beaker and no Continental Celts appear to match them very closely. I really think that many populations were named Celtic erroneously in ancient times. I think this will be sorted out in the future with more ancient genomes. The Bell Beakers used to be a bit of a conundrum but with more ancient genomes it now appears pretty conclusive that Bell Beakers were an offshoot of Corded Ware which if anyone looked at it logically in the past is not a big surprise. Autosomally it always made sense but people used to think that Corded Ware were R1a and Bell Beaker were R1b so they thought they were different groups but now it has been shown that Corded Ware have a lot of R1b also. The Celtic issue will be sorted out as well but anyone with a bit of nonce would know that there are obviously a lot of people called Celts that aren't the same genetically. I think this is obvious now.

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Originally Posted by Fantomas

It's not known what pigmentation has this type, but very similar to highly reduced Borreby, western European type

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Ancient romans and greeks described the Celts... and there are also statues of their physical traits.. They could have different hair colour but their physical facial traits were similar.. and also their culture was the same everywere in Europe..and Anatolia..


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...fV0lp&usqp=CAU
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...g?format=1500w
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...h9wFr&usqp=CAU
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Inv8574_n7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley

Well British Isles populations appear to be just Bronze Age Bell Beaker. Of course there was some input from some other groups but Insular Celts appear overwhelmingly Bell Beaker and no Continental Celts appear to match them very closely. I really think that many populations were named Celtic erroneously in ancient times. I think this will be sorted out in the future with more ancient genomes. The Bell Beakers used to be a bit of a conundrum but with more ancient genomes it now appears pretty conclusive that Bell Beakers were an offshoot of Corded Ware which if anyone looked at it logically in the past is not a big surprise. Autosomally it always made sense but people used to think that Corded Ware were R1a and Bell Beaker were R1b so they thought they were different groups but now it has been shown that Corded Ware have a lot of R1b also. The Celtic issue will be sorted out as well but anyone with a bit of nonce would know that there are obviously a lot of people called Celts that aren't the same genetically. I think this is obvious now.

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:eek: You'll might be very surprised, but it's not contradict to the west-east Celtic expansion as well. Rather argues in favour of it because of distribution of patrilineal DNA in Europe

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Originally Posted by Fantomas

What exact ancient DNA dismantled it?

So standing as opposition 'Central European theory' made more sense?

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There's no evidence of people from the Atlantic Fringes of Europe having a genetic impact on Central or Eastern Europe from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, on the contrary there is evidence of Iberia and the British Isles being genetically impacted in that timeframe, both autosomally and in Y-DNA. Iberians and Insular 'Celts' have been overwhelmingly R-DF27 and R-L21 respectively since the Bell Beakers, but those subclades have stayed almost exclusive to Atlantic Europe since that time. The argument for 'Celts from the West' would thus have to be a spread of Celtic culture from West to East without any migration, even though the earliest known Celtic culture is in Central Europe.

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Originally Posted by Creoda

There's no evidence of people from the Atlantic Fringes of Europe having a genetic impact on Central or Eastern Europe from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, on the contrary there is evidence of Iberia and the British Isles being genetically impacted in that timeframe, both autosomally and in Y-DNA. Iberians and Insular 'Celts' have been overwhelmingly R-DF27 and R-L21 respectively since the Bell Beakers, but those subclades have stayed almost exclusive to Atlantic Europe since that time. The argument for 'Celts from the West' would thus have to be a spread of Celtic culture from West to East without any migration.

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I trust much more the ancient roman and greek's statues of European Celts ( particularly the romans statue because romans didn't like very much the "ideal" ).... from Spain to England from west Germany to Anatolia..with all central Europe in between.. - North west Italy also - ..

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Originally Posted by Creoda

Ancient DNA has dismantled the 'Celts from the West' theory, not that the theory ever made sense.

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How exactly was it dismantled? Celts could emerge from Bell Beakers at the Atlantic coast.

You are forgetting that Celts emerged during the Late Bronze Age, not during Copper Age.

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This image clearly says "Atlantic Late Bronze Age networks" as the Proto-Celtic homeland:

https://i.imgur.com/ozUhAAn.png

^^^
In Late Bronze Age times, everyone had a lot of Steppe ancestry all over that yellow area.

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Originally Posted by Creoda

on the contrary there is evidence of Iberia and the British Isles being genetically impacted in that timeframe

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Very interesting, i am at full attention. How Gaulish, Iberian, British and easpecially Irish were impacted in Iron Age by Central European. Are you going by genetics here, or maybe archaeological, historical?

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The argument for 'Celts from the West' would thus have to be a spread of Celtic culture from West to East without any migration.

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Maybe,... not sure, there must be more DNA samples from late Halstatt and especially La Tene graves

"Celts from the West" does NOT imply that Celts were not descended from Yamnaya.

Everyone had Yamnaya DNA along the Atlantic Facade already in the Early Bronze Age.

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This is a French Bell Beaker, who lived long before the emergence of Proto-Celts:

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Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.138864,0.116786,0.047894,0.085272,0.020311,0.039324,0.001175,0.003923,-0.024747,-0.031345,0.011367,0.002098,-0.000149,-0.015964,0.038273,-0.00305,-0.006258,-0.001774,-0.004651,0.004252,0.000749,-0.006801,0.003821,0.00964,-0.00455

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.0122,0.0115,0.0127,0.0264,0.0066,0.0141,0.0005,0.0017,-0.0121,-0.0172,0.007,0.0014,-0.0001,-0.0116,0.0282,-0.0023,-0.0048,-0.0014,-0.0037,0.0034,0.0006,-0.0055,0.0031,0.008,-0.0038

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^^^
Celts could easily emerge from such Atlantic Bell Beakers who had a lot of Steppe DNA.