Southeast England was 80% replaced by Anglo-Saxons in the Early Middle Ages

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09-21-2020, 03:21 AM
David Johnson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pulkher

Are the Irish and Scots more "Saxon" than the English?

Global25:

Code:

Distance to: England_Saxon 0.01835674 Irish 0.01852710 Scottish 0.02010173 Orcadian 0.02017702 Shetlandic 0.02112210 English 0.02137730 Welsh 0.02393586 English_Cornwall

A simple model, to be taken with a grain of salt. According to this, the Anglo-Saxon contribution is approximately 15%.

Code:

Target: Shetlandic Distance: 1.7569% / 0.01756912 52.4 England_Saxon 47.6 England_Roman Target: Irish Distance: 1.1342% / 0.01134196 69.2 England_Roman 30.8 England_Saxon Target: Scottish Distance: 0.9918% / 0.00991845 75.2 England_Roman 24.8 England_Saxon Target: English Distance: 1.1736% / 0.01173631 84.2 England_Roman 15.8 England_Saxon Target: Orcadian Distance: 0.9817% / 0.00981675 84.2 England_Roman 15.8 England_Saxon Target: Welsh Distance: 1.2022% / 0.01202204 84.8 England_Roman 15.2 England_Saxon Target: English_Cornwall Distance: 1.4197% / 0.01419734 92.4 England_Roman 7.6 England_Saxon

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.
09-21-2020, 03:25 AM
David Johnson

I look forward to this study. I find the studies title a bit sensationalist, we don't need a study to tell us the early anglo-saxons were overwhelmingly anglo-saxon. I am more interested in how modern English compare and I hope this study delves into that. The Y dna in parts of SE and E England imply a mass male replacement, so it would make sense that the original Anglo-Saxons did primarily assimilate women.

Some amateur stats of L21 in England, taken from the English dna project. Even the most "celtic" shifted regions don't surpass 25%. Ireland has over 70% afaik.

Spoiler!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/90...3299e68f9d.png
09-21-2020, 04:07 AM
dududud

I guess my father has more Celtic ancestor than Anglo-Saxon, if the Celts fled to parts of France (North-Western and other area).
09-21-2020, 04:46 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnson

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.

Right. Med/Central Euro or Eastern Euro admixture shifts a population away from other NW Euro's more than anything, that's why English are further away from Anglo-Saxons than Irish on G25, also why South Dutch and South/West Germans are even further away, despite all obviously having much more Germanic influence than the Irish. It's why I'm sure sub-Roman Britons had to be noticeably different overall from Irish/Scots, England and Southern England especially wouldn't be so South shifted otherwise.

The English sample on G25 is mostly from Kent I believe, similar to the Southeast English average on Eurogenes K13/K15. The gedmatch averages I've collected from around England so far (including SE England) are different though.

K13
https://i.postimg.cc/VN8V0JHg/k13newcomparison.png
K15
https://i.postimg.cc/m21XdYvV/k15newcomp.png
09-21-2020, 04:53 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnson

I look forward to this study. I find the studies title a bit sensationalist, we don't need a study to tell us the early anglo-saxons were overwhelmingly anglo-saxon. I am more interested in how modern English compare and I hope this study delves into that. The Y dna in parts of SE and E England imply a mass male replacement, so it would make sense that the original Anglo-Saxons did primarily assimilate women.

Some amateur stats of L21 in England, taken from the English dna project. Even the most "celtic" shifted regions don't surpass 25%. Ireland has over 70% afaik.

Spoiler!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/90...3299e68f9d.png

I made the thread title, and I disagree. I think it's important to know whether the original migration of Anglo-Saxons was large and displaced the local population, or whether it was a smallish band of men who formed a minority elite, and with a founder effect created the modern English y-dna picture, as has often been hypothesised in recent decades (by people who think the Anglo-Saxon autosomal influence was minor).

It's also relevant to the lack of Celtic and Romano-British culture in early England; that's much more understandable with a mass migration.
09-21-2020, 06:27 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnson

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.

Btw, a PCA is dependent on the populations you choose. The more diverse you make it, the more the PCA will emphasise base similarity between populations (eg Northern Euro vs Med) and ignore recent drift, such as that between Insular Celtic vs Germanic NW Europeans.

Eg, If you look at the West Eurasian PCA here and hover over the European cline, NW and NE Europeans cluster together based on similar levels of Steppe influence.
https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia

The same is true for a whole Europe PCA, it makes NW Euro's cluster together based more on levels of Steppe vs Farmer admixture than Insular Celtic vs Germanic drift.
09-21-2020, 07:38 AM
J. Ketch

Quote:

Originally Posted by dududud

I guess my father has more Celtic ancestor than Anglo-Saxon, if the Celts fled to parts of France (North-Western and other area).

The level of British ancestry in NW France is a study that should be done, the French don't seem much interested in that sort of thing though, unfortunately.
09-21-2020, 07:59 AM
Graham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

The level of British ancestry in NW France is a study that should be done, the French don't seem much interested in that sort of thing though, unfortunately.

Pas de rosbif! No Horrible Englishman.

Aye, can't imagine the French starting that study. :icon_lol:
09-21-2020, 08:08 AM
XenophobicPrussian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Unknowable, and I doubt it.

Southeast/East England had been very Romanised too. I'll be surprised if the Britons the Anglo-Saxons mixed with were exactly like modern Irish/Scots.

Yeah, not because of the Romans though, England oddly enough has the most actual Celtic admixture in the Isles despite being the first ones to stop speaking the language. Irish specifically may have had a lot of extra drift too as they may or may not have been separated from people in Great Britain since the time of the Beakers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pulkher

Are the Irish and Scots more "Saxon" than the English?

Global25:

Code:

Distance to: England_Saxon 0.01835674 Irish 0.01852710 Scottish 0.02010173 Orcadian 0.02017702 Shetlandic 0.02112210 English 0.02137730 Welsh 0.02393586 English_Cornwall

A simple model, to be taken with a grain of salt. According to this, the Anglo-Saxon contribution is approximately 15%.

Code:

Target: Shetlandic Distance: 1.7569% / 0.01756912 52.4 England_Saxon 47.6 England_Roman Target: Irish Distance: 1.1342% / 0.01134196 69.2 England_Roman 30.8 England_Saxon Target: Scottish Distance: 0.9918% / 0.00991845 75.2 England_Roman 24.8 England_Saxon Target: English Distance: 1.1736% / 0.01173631 84.2 England_Roman 15.8 England_Saxon Target: Orcadian Distance: 0.9817% / 0.00981675 84.2 England_Roman 15.8 England_Saxon Target: Welsh Distance: 1.2022% / 0.01202204 84.8 England_Roman 15.2 England_Saxon Target: English_Cornwall Distance: 1.4197% / 0.01419734 92.4 England_Roman 7.6 England_Saxon

Bad model.
09-21-2020, 08:10 AM
bandeirante

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Unknowable, and I doubt it.

Southeast/East England had been very Romanised too. I'll be surprised if the Britons the Anglo-Saxons mixed with were exactly like modern Irish/Scots.

not!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani...)#cite_note-22

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