Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

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Originally Posted by Token

It is not even possible to model most Balkanites with qpAdm at the moment, and i've spent nights trying. The only one that worked were Bulgarians (with BGR_IA + Slavic) and Greeks (with Myceanaean + Slavic), but even then the fits were quite poor because there was probably some admixture events with Anatolians in Byzantine era. All of the others failed (i've not tried Serbians though), because the samples are insufficient atm. Not even Croatians could be modelled using the avaiable local samples, and i've tried all possible scenarios that you can imagine. So pretty much all of the models we see in this thread are utter failures.

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If you post the raw output from one of the runs i can give you some good tips how to make it work. I’ve been taught by an expert in using it.

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Originally Posted by bained

So, turkic theory is dead once and for all.

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:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria

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Originally Posted by Chelubey

:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria

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Balkars? Why do you think so? The Karachay-Balkars are autosomally barely different from the Kabardians. Maybe there are some Y-DNA differences but nonetheless both groups are native NW Caucasians with some Mongoloid input (which the Ossetians also show by the way).

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Originally Posted by Leto

Balkars? Why do you think so? The Karachay-Balkars are autosomally barely different from the Kabardians. Maybe there are some Y-DNA differences but nonetheless both groups are native NW Caucasians with some Mongoloid input (which the Ossetians also show by the way).

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Too long to explain. But...
Balkars are Caucasian genetics plus many Turkic haplogroups (Ra1-z-93) : Caucasians + Iranians- (Baned's interpretation).
Also Tatars have a Caucasian influence (haplogroups + anthropology). Possibly the modern Balkan Bulgarians will least of all resemble the descendants of the ancient Bulgarians (among other contenders)

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Originally Posted by Chelubey

Too long to explain. But...
Balkars are Caucasian genetics plus many Turkic haplogroups (Ra1-z-93) : Caucasians + Iranians- (Baned's interpretation).
Also Tatars have a Caucasian influence (haplogroups + anthropology). Possibly the modern Balkan Bulgarians will least of all resemble the descendants of the ancient Bulgarians (among other contenders)

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Well, linguistically the Karachay-Balkars are close to the Kumyks, both are Western Kipchaks.

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Originally Posted by Leto

Well, linguistically the Karachay-Balkars are close to the Kumyks, both are Western Kipchaks.

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В 1183 г. владимирский князь Всеволод перед походом "на Булгары" сообщил киевскому князю Святославу: “Половцев же призывать не хочу, ибо они с болгары язык и род един

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https://proza.ru/2012/11/16/324

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Originally Posted by Chelubey

:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria

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The surviving agricultural population was forced to leave the steppe lands. The majority settled along the Kama river and in adjacent areas further north. The area around Kazan, which was settled by Mari people some years before, became the nucleus of the ("Kazan Tatar") population.

A large part of the region's population included Turkic groups such as Sabirs, Barsil, Bilars, Baranjars, and part of the obscure[15] Burtas (by ibn Rustah). Modern Chuvashes claim to descend from Sabirs and Kazan Tatars from the Volga Bulgars.[16]

Another part comprised Volga Finnic and Magyar (Asagel and Pascatir) tribes, from which Bisermäns probably descend.[17] Ibn Fadlan refers to Volga Bulgaria as Saqaliba, a general Arabic term for Slavic people. Other researches tie the term to the ethnic name Scythian (or Saka in Persian).[18]

According to some historians[citation needed], over 80% of the country's population was killed[citation needed] during the invasion. The remaining population mostly relocated to the northern areas.

Some Volga Bulgars, primarily masters and craftsmen, were forcibly moved to Sarai and other southern cities of the Golden Horde. Volga Bulgaria remained a center of agriculture and handicraft

Do you even read your link?

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Originally Posted by bained

Do you even read your link?

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What's wrong?

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Originally Posted by bained

The area around Kazan, which was settled by Mari people some years before, became the nucleus of the ("Kazan Tatar") population.

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I can't find this quote there.

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Originally Posted by bained

According to some historians[citation needed], over 80% of the country's population was killed[citation needed] during the invasion. The remaining population mostly relocated to the northern areas.

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There is no objective data for such conclusions (citation needed)

[ЦИТАТА = Челубей; 6969726] :picard2:
В Поволжието потомците на българите са чуваши и татари, в Кавказ - Балкари, на Балканите - никой.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria [/ QUOTE]

On what basis are these allegations? Historical ?, Genetic? or other?
How did you prove that Chuvash, Tatars / which Tatars? / And Balkars are descendants of the ancient Bulgarians? If it is with genetic research, what ancient Bulgarian samples did you compare?
If it is from a historical or cultural aspect, what do you compare?

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Check the BGR_MLBA. When you mix it with Balkan_C, you get the HRV_IA. When you mix HRV_IA with Mycen, you get the BGR_IA. Create such a mix, then model it with Avar_Szolad, Anatolian Greek, Mycen. This is the best you can get on Balkaners.

Here I did it by adding Alan and Khazar:


https://i.ibb.co/k38TRjq/0X2.png
https://i.ibb.co/DRFnsTr/025x2.png
https://i.ibb.co/s1cf5rR/final.png


I doubt Alan and Turk means anything in this case.

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Ok but my question still exists. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic even a 10-15% input to modern Bulgarians would make them plotting with Balkan Turks, right?
I find more possible they were a Western Iranic group. Such admixture existed already in Balkans.