I didnt see your 20% blond berber kids neither, maybe the 2% :DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Prince
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I didnt see your 20% blond berber kids neither, maybe the 2% :DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Prince
Here i meant blondism in adults, not meaning blond hair but light eyes opposed to dark and light hair as opposed to dark(=black).Quote:
They treated the Spanish in ethnic groups like they did the Moroccans.. perhaps the Catalan have blondism of 24% and the Berbers 20 or 21%. However they measured among the Berbers various local tribes. Some tribes perhaps reaching 30% blondism. The highlands were not as dense populated meaning that you do get a fair spot showable on a map when produced.
Blondism in kids is always haircolour related, but for as far I know it was not taken in the selection.
Here is the part coon wrote, not based on theory. but just measurements according to the same scale (Martin and Von Luschan) used for other populations:
And this is his about Spain, using the same scale of pigmentation:Quote:
The Riffians are pinkish-white skinned, like northern Europeans, in 65 per cent of the total group, and in approximately 80 per cent in the central tribes. The exposed skin color is brick-red in many cases, being incapable of tanning; in others it is brunet-white or light brown in summer, and bleaches out again in winter. Freckles are found on 23 per cent of Riffians; this figure is approximate since some were measured in winter, others in the summer. The head hair is black in 44 per cent of the total, and dark to medium brown in 46 per cent; the others are reddish-brown or light brown; in a few cases, golden-blond. These last form less than 1 per cent of the whole, however. The beard is usually much lighter, being black in only 34 per cent of the total, dark or medium brown in 25 per cent, reddish-brown in 14 per cent, light brown in 19 per cent, and golden, ashen, or red in 8 per cent. Seventeen per cent of Riffians show some rufosity in beard color. Since the Riffians wear turbans, and since the few adults who still wear pigtails cover all but the ends of these, it is the beard color and not the head hair color which is responsible for the current idea of Riffian blondism. Furthermore the children, who go bareheaded, possess an infantile dominance of blondism, as among Europeans of mixed pigmentation. The blondest hair and beards are found in the central Rif, especially in the tribe of Beni Amart, where over 50 per cent of the men have beards light brown or lighter.
Fifty-seven per cent of Riffians have mixed or light eyes; of the remaining 43 per cent, dark brown is the commonest color. Green-brown is the commonest mixed form, then gray-brown and finally blue-brown: pure blue eyes account for only 2 per cent of the group, while only one man was observed with gray eyes. Unmatched eyes are common. In some tribes as few as 20 per cent are pure dark-eyed, in none more than 55 per cent. On the whole, blondism is strong in the Rif; over half of the adult men show some trace of it. But the Rif is not a blond country in the sense that Norway, Sweden, Finland, or even England are blond; it is, however, blonder than most of Spain or southern Italy.
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-14.htm
Quote:
Another useful series is one of 420 adult males from Andalusia, representing the most brunet population in Spain, and the one which supposedly contains the most Arab and Berber blood.118 These Andalusians have a mean stature of 166.5 cm., approximately the same as that of the smaller Moroccan Bcrbers, the Kabyles, and the modern Egyptians. Their mean relative sitting height, 50.6, relates them to North African and Asiatic Mediterraneans, rather than to most Europeans. The rest of their bodily proportions follow the same relationship. Cranially and facially, they differ little from the Madrid series, except in the possession of a wider bigonial (104.5 mm.) which may perhaps be a North African heritage.119
The skin color of the Andalusians is light brown, corresponding to #15 to #18 on the von Luschan chart, in 80 per cent of cases, while only one man in six has a pinkish-white skin of the type so frequent among Ruffians. Sixty per cent have dark brown hair, 30 per cent black hair. The remaining 10 per cent show some evidence of blondism or of rufosity. Only one man out of 420 was truly blond. The hair is straight in half the series, wavy in a third, and curly in a sixth. Six men in the entire group have negroid, frizzly hair; a minor absorption of negro blood, dating from Moorish times, is evident. As a whole, however, Andalusians are free from negroid traits. As among most Mediterraneans, beard and body hair are not abundant.
Sixty per cent of Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prev-alence of greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-15.htm
Yes i've read that before. Coon couldn't tell the diference between morocans and spaniards. I never got why :)
"Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. " by Coon
http://i36.tinypic.com/wi0h6w.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/f3b2gi.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/24odkzn.jpg
And this is the complete text:Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDelarge
Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent.113
In most of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15 per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The prevalence of these two features. dark brown hair and a straight nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and Neolithic date. The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.
Exactly, Coon is saying here that the that Spaniards are lighter than the Arabs of North-Africa. Which is a true thing don't you say?
So if it wasn't for the hair and nose they would be basically the same, including skin colour. Nope, i don't agree.
Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profileQuote:
Originally Posted by AlexDelarge
He only said 'most' would be the same.
Since he f.i. mentioned two other groups:
Quote:
South of the Ghomara and again west of the Rif, lie the high mountain tribes of the Senhaja Sghir, including Taghzuth, famous for its craftsmen in metal and leather; these people speak a Senhajan dialect normally incomprehensible to Riffians, who can, on the other hand, understand Ghomaran. Both the Senhaja Sghir and Ghomara, however, are in recent years tending to lose their Berber speech in favor of Arabic, since all or nearly all are bilingual. The Senhaja Sghir are darker, as a rule, tan Riffians. A number are definitely negroid, whereas in the Rif negroid blood is confined to outsiders. Metrically the Senhaja Sghir are similar to the Riffians, but slightly smaller headed as a rule, and narrower jawed. There is among them a non-Ruffian, Mediterranean element, which shows itself in a convex nasal profile and a sloping forehead, and which is reminiscent of eastern Barbary and of points farther east.
...
The fourth of the great Moroccan .Berber groups, the Shluh, differs from the northern Moroccans in that they are rarely blond. Mixed and light eyes are reduced to the traditional Mediterranean 25 per cent; hair lighter than dark brown to 5 per cent, and beards of the same category to 25 per cent. Metrically they are fully Mediterranean, with a stature mean of 165 cm., smaller vault and face dimensions than the Riffians, and a mean cephalic index of 74.5. The total face height is 120 mm., the bigonial 100 mm. Individually they are mostly Mediterranean, of the straight-nosed, basic North African variety, and the chief deviation from this norm is in a negroid direction.
source: http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-14.htm
Only most? :)
I didn't get your point. I still don't agree with that sentence.
The funny thing about Coon is that he wrote a chapter about the people of Iberia without ever visiting the place. I read somewhere that he made the percentages of skin, eye and hair color from spanish soldiers that were stationed in Morocco while he was there studying the berbers. And he decided to sample an entire peninsula with those numbers. I don't take what he wrote very seriously.
I´ve seen many riffians too, in fact many of them are immigrants in Spain. It´s true that they use to be lighter than the rest of moroccans and that negroid features are not common between them, but seriously, it´s really hard to think they are lighter than the iberians. I´ve never seen IRL a blond adult one and blue eyes are very hard to find too.
Yups, as I said before, during the period these maps were made most of these ethnic groups still had there own territories. And according to these researches the Riffian Berbers and the Berbers of Kabyle had more lighter individuals as those from Andalusia.
I, and neither Coon never stated that Moroccans or Algerians are lighter. And when taking haircolour for these not Riffian/Kabyla into account they were darker. Nexto that some ethnic groups according to Coon were even deviating in a negroid direction.
So Spain on average was (and is) lighter than North-Africa on average.
Just to post some extremes (not impying all Kabyla are fair or light brunet.):
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/.../berbers_2.jpg
Zenaga/Sanhaja tribe
http://www.cri.ensmp.fr/people/boucheba/kabylie/femme
http://athyenni-algeria.tayri.org/femme.jpg
Amazigh women from the region of Kabylia
Normal Kabyles:
http://i9.tinypic.com/52q776f.jpg
I know you didn't say that but apparentely Coon had some trouble telling North Africans and Spaniards apart judging by the quote i put here where he says that he tells them apart by looking at the nose and hair color. I think that is crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Prince