Is Jewish ancestry uncommon in Budapest? I remember some article claiming it's relatively common. I thought it was exaggerated because of liberal propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
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Is Jewish ancestry uncommon in Budapest? I remember some article claiming it's relatively common. I thought it was exaggerated because of liberal propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
my results using k13:
Target: mh
Distance: 0.8576% / 0.85760690 | ADC: 0.25x
41.2 Hungarian_Szekely
32.4 Hungarian_Transdanubia
22.2 Trentino
4.2 Bulgarian_Southwest
my mothers:
Target: cb
Distance: 2.4272% / 2.42717031 | ADC: 0.25x
33.4 Hungarian_Northern
26.4 Hungarian_Transdanubia
17.8 Hungarian_Szekely
13.8 Swiss_Italian
7.0 Bulgarian_Pleven
1.6 Dolgan
now only Hungarian averages with Dutch added:
Target: mh
Distance: 2.5998% / 2.59980832
65.0 Hungarian_Csango
24.0 South_Dutch
11.0 Hungarian_Szekely
Target: mh
Distance: 2.7553% / 2.75529500 | ADC: 0.25x
83.4 Hungarian_Szekely
14.4 South_Dutch
2.2 Hungarian_Csango
now my mothers results with only Hungarian and Austrian added because of her Austrian grandmother:
Target: cb
Distance: 3.7644% / 3.76437438
66.4 Hungarian_Szekely
18.0 Hungarian_Northern
13.0 Austrian
2.6 Hungarian_Transdanubia
Target: cb
Distance: 3.7774% / 3.77739737 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 Hungarian_Szekely
47.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
You're so darn Hungarian, I'm jealous :pQuote:
Originally Posted by 17571imre
I know the Khanty, and the Mansi who speak the closest linguistic languages to Hungarian are populations in the MDLP Project. they would likely would show close similarity to the Magyar Conquerors if you look at the languages Hungarian seems somewhat mutually intelligible based off when I was comparing some of the words and sentences. Someone who speaks Hungarian probably would be able to understand some of Mansi or Khanty language. Maybe you could compare Hungarians with these population through MDLP.
You're not looking at a map with sufficient Romanian samples. Check this one posted by ph2ter from samples gathered I think by Ion Basescu:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
https://i.imgur.com/3eQ4U7q.png
Serbs plus Montenegrins span roughly the same area as Romanians. Csángós are firmly in the Romanian cluster. Transylvanian Hungarians are somewhere in between Hungarians and Serbs while Székelys are somewhere in between Hungarians and Romanians. Many Alfoldis are in the Romanian cluster as well.
I wish the map had more Bulgarians.
Lol, just being polite when I say this has been done ad-nauseam at this point by scientists. Hungarian is considered by (some) indeed as an Ugric language (not a branch of Finnic at all, one is not a child system of the other and the largest segment of our words are of an "unknown" origin; this is from the Ugric supporters), and the Hungarian conquerer population isn't even close with Khanty or Mansi. They are closest to Turkic Bashkirs, followed then by modern Hungarians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown European
Khanty and Mansi were included as well in the genetic study. They aren't even close to us or our Conqueror ancestors as other Turkic populations.
https://i.imgur.com/bEXsjnA.jpg
I was curious so I compared Csango and Transylvanian Hungarians to all the Romanian averages on K13 plus the new Alfold and Transdanubian K13 averages by Dunai.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Distance to: Csango
4.82089203 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.01515703 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.64085100 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.14359016 Alfold
6.25060797 Romanian_Transylvania
7.54947680 Transdanubia
7.70066880 Romanian_Oltenia
8.58367637 Romanian_Wallachia_average
9.68214852 Romanian_Muntenia
Distance to: Transylvania_Hungarian
4.86990760 Alfold
5.62184134 Transdanubia
6.70964232 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.83845743 Romania_Moldavia_average
7.29845874 Romania_Moldavia_South
7.92142664 Romanian_Transylvania
9.09360215 Romanian_Oltenia
10.21366731 Romanian_Wallachia_average
11.44690788 Romanian_Muntenia
Target: Csango
Distance: 1.9888% / 1.98883009 | ADC: 0.25x
42.8 Romania_Moldavia_average
37.6 Alfold
13.2 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.4 Transdanubia
Target: Transylvania_Hungarian
Distance: 1.9656% / 1.96560880 | ADC: 0.25x
41.8 Transdanubia
40.0 Romania_Moldavia_South
18.2 Alfold
Only because of a few Moldovans, the bulk of Romanians plot at the bottom of the picture where no Hungarians are found.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Avarage Serb plots clearly differently than avarage Romanian. Székely and Hu_Transylvania samples here plot with Serbs-Croats rather than Romanians (I am talking about avarages, obviously).
I saw one alföldi result that plotted with Serbs, the rest didn't. Avarage Alföldis in Dunai's study are far from Serbo-Romanian genetically, they're barely different than avarage Transdanubian, despite some people claiming they were Balkan transplants or something and super different to Transdanubians. Even I started to think avarage alföldi is genetically serb or something and the results here surprised me a bit.
Alföldis in reality could be even closer to Transdanubia, but Dunai included Hungarians from Partium(Romania) and Vojvodina(Serbia) in the alföld category. Or maybe I'm wrong here and they are genetically same as Alföldi people from Hungary, idk really, only Dunai could tell.
Edit.
Yes, the Alföld Hungarians are pretty cohesive all throughout the historic regions, only among northerners I have seen higher Slavic input, while in southerners somewhat higher Balkanic. But as the distances for Alföld shows, they are very similar to average Hungarians and Slovenians, North Croatians. Those who believe Alföld Hungarians are Balkanic transplants obviously haven't read much history, since after the Ottomans were defeated by the Habsburgs, these lands were largely repopulated by Hungarians who fled previously to Northern Hungary after the Ottoman occupation. Balkanic transplants to Southern Alföld have kept to their religions and culture, since you can see Serbians and Romanians becoming the majority in Vojvodina and Banat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universe
@Dunai
if you want to add it to K13 Vahaduo please post it as text, not image. Only averages.
When I added only Hungarian and Romanian-Moldovan groups the distance calculator shows them being closer to Hungarians rather than to Romanians.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Almost all Hungarian groups are under and around 5 distance, while from Romanians only Moldovans come somewhat close, who happen to not even be purely Vlachs, around 7-8 distance, while Transylvanian Romanians who are closer to Vlachs and more mixed with Transylvanian Hungarians are even more distant to them than Moldovans are.
Distance to: Hungarian_Transylvania
1.62642874 Hungarian_Szekely
2.83985087 Hungarian_Csango
4.80736374 Hungarian
4.87007479 Hungarian_Alfold
4.96068780 Moldova_North
5.36565175 Hungarian_Budapest
5.62296280 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.71000281 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.83811758 Romania_Moldavia_average
7.29750510 Romania_Moldavia_South
7.84065198 Moldova_average
7.90980372 Moldova_Centre
7.92018186 Romanian_Transylvania
8.53991091 Hungarian_Northern
9.09253591 Romanian_Oltenia
10.21301526 Romanian_Wallachia_average
11.44642966 Romanian_Muntenia
11.56665382 Moldova_South
Target: Hungarian_Transylvania
Distance: 0.9626% / 0.96260866
62.6 Hungarian_Szekely
18.4 Hungarian_Budapest
12.0 Moldova_North
6.0 Moldova_South
1.0 Hungarian_Csango
Similar story is when it comes to Székelys.
Distance to: Hungarian_Szekely
1.62642874 Hungarian_Transylvania
2.83197679 Hungarian_Csango
5.60064831 Hungarian
5.83957987 Hungarian_Alfold
6.09002730 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.09348036 Moldova_North
6.11472417 Hungarian_Budapest
6.45004502 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.47184481 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.85460897 Romania_Moldavia_South
7.38664506 Romanian_Transylvania
7.70424902 Moldova_average
7.97022603 Moldova_Centre
8.51383826 Romanian_Oltenia
9.35793637 Hungarian_Northern
9.65085130 Romanian_Wallachia_average
10.87371667 Romanian_Muntenia
11.09805602 Moldova_South
Target: Hungarian_Szekely
Distance: 1.3704% / 1.37043403
67.4 Hungarian_Transylvania
16.0 Hungarian_Transdanubia
9.4 Romanian_Oltenia
4.6 Romanian_Muntenia
2.6 Hungarian_Csango
The only population you can see a more significant Moldovan input is among Csángó, but Moldovans themselves also have to a certain degree Csángó input, so it's not surprising. But in distance they still are closest to fellow Hungarians in Transylvania and Székelyföld, with under 3, while Moldovans regions start around 5.
Distance to: Hungarian_Csango
2.83197679 Hungarian_Szekely
2.83985087 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.79916464 Romania_Moldavia_North
4.99036133 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.14757528 Moldova_North
5.61545468 Romania_Moldavia_South
5.93063919 Moldova_Centre
6.07181449 Moldova_average
6.16408440 Hungarian_Alfold
6.22379557 Romanian_Transylvania
6.51288066 Hungarian
7.38393141 Hungarian_Budapest
7.57154113 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.67815937 Romanian_Oltenia
8.56012595 Romanian_Wallachia_average
9.65814844 Romanian_Muntenia
9.82239781 Hungarian_Northern
9.99094621 Moldova_South
Target: Hungarian_Csango
Distance: 1.4563% / 1.45634563
48.6 Hungarian_Szekely
23.2 Moldova_Centre
14.0 Hungarian_Northern
12.8 Romania_Moldavia_South
1.4 Romanian_Muntenia
The real Romanians that Hungarians of Transylvania should be really close to if they would be just assimilated Romanians, are those of Transylvania, however in both cases they are rather distant, with 7 and 8, while only the Csángó are at least close to their Moldovan neighbors, with a distance of 5. However all three are closest with one another, like very close, which just proves the historic process how they all developed from Medieval Transylvanian Hungarians.
-double post-
Nope. The reason why half the Romanian cluster comprises mostly of Moldovans is because they were half of the samples. However, if samples were drawn proportionally there should have been half Transylvanian. In that case the northern half of the cluster would have been populated with both Transylvanian and Moldovan. So far the sampling is not correctly stratified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universe
It's not the time to draw any conclusions yet, but on a glance at the map I see 3 Alfoldi samples in the Moldovan part (closer to some Serbian samples, true, but still in the overall Moldovan part). However once more samples from Northern Romania are drawn you'll see an even larger overlap. Check out where the Maramures samples are, right in the middle of the Northern Alfoldis group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universe
There is not much Hungarian Romanian overlap considering they are neighbours.
It is common and not propaganda. Budapest has one of largest Jewish populations in Europe and largest synagogue in Europe is located in Pest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Not with Hungarians from Hungary proper, true. But there is some overlap with Hungarian groups from Transylvania and some Alfoldis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
But of course it's not similar with the overlap Romanians have with Serbs, and I suspect Bulgarians too. Too bad only a few Bulgarian samples were on that map.
Hungarians are clearly visible northern than Romanians, more northern than vast majority of Moldavians from Republic. Why a nigga like you don't understand this from the beginning?Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
In these PCAs neighboring European ethnicities almost always form a continuum, nothing out of ordinary. In some cases you will even find individuals who don't plot with neighboring ethnicity but even further. For example Czech individuals plotting with Hungarians/Croats/Slovenes or Romanians plotting with Montenegrins etc.
Who's this EAST_GERMANY_krampetz and what's his ancestry? https://i.imgur.com/CV3v5Dg.jpg
Hungarians are more Northern, but not much more. The map is not properly oriented, it needs at least 45 degrees counter-clockwise rotation. I explained why earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Anyhow, reading cardinal directions on a PCA is a risky business. While there is a correspondence to geographical coordinates, people need to understand that PCA only maps datapoints to orthogonal coordinates, which destroys all the non-linearities in the data. This is why we cannot say whether an individual datapoint is more northern or sourthern than another one close-by, but we can still have some conclusions on regional averages.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Added to K13 Vahaduo, and removed previous Hungarian refs.
http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo.htm
Hungarian average
Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.2057% / 0.20569609 | ADC: 0.25x
44.2 Hungarian_Alfold
28.2 Hungarian_Budapest
25.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
2.0 Hungarian_Csango
0.4 Csango_Gymes
Distance to: Oszkar
3.72317069 Austrian
4.00468476 East_German
6.94743838 German_east
7.24774164 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.88518682 Hungarian_Budapest
8.14288647 Czech
8.76476859 Hungarian_Northern
8.77407931 Hungarian
9.68033052 Slovenian
9.87765876 Slovak
10.10673542 Hungarian_Alfold
10.11881910 German_West
10.71997201 West_German
10.79100088 Croat_Zagreb
10.81012026 Swiss_German
11.34722874 North_German
11.58932699 South_Dutch
11.69656787 Danish
11.84923626 Csango_Gymes
11.89489425 Hungarian_Transylvania
12.09803715 Hungarian_Szekely
12.39052864 Szekely_Hungarian
12.55726085 Swedish
13.26481813 Swiss_French
13.33460911 Croat_Bosnia
13.69373579 Moldova_North
13.72289692 North-Swedish
13.86021284 South_Polish
13.96531619 Hungarian_Csango
13.98615387 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
14.02118041 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
14.18815351 Croat_Herzegovina
14.35983983 Croat_Split
14.38329587 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
14.68554051 Serb_B&H
14.89497902 English
No offense taken but shouldn't there be at least some portion of the conquerors ancestry that should derive from an Khanty-Mansi related population. can you send links of some of the studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
Interesting. Just proving it wasn't a bad average at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Distance to: Old_HU_average
1.53138386 Hungarian_Transdanubia
2.09842520 Hungarian_Budapest
2.64835397 Hungarian
4.04034568 Hungarian_Alfold
4.30117912 Slovenian
4.41299107 Hungarian_Northern
4.79158638 Croat_Zagreb
5.94163277 Austrian
6.27292099 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.27789317 Slovak
6.62932877 Czech
6.64973538 Hungarian_Szekely
6.75546445 East_German
7.30041095 Croat_Bosnia
7.39605300 Moldova_North
7.68292262 Croat_Herzegovina
7.76564872 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
8.08390415 Hungarian_Csango
8.26076268 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.27422504 Croat_Split
Target: Old_HU_average
Distance: 1.2748% / 1.27481501 | ADC: 0.5x
97.4 Hungarian_Transdanubia
2.2 North-Swedish
0.4 Tabassaran
Target: Old_HU_average
Distance: 0.9330% / 0.93298879 | ADC: 0.25x
88.6 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.8 North-Swedish
4.4 Hungarian_Northern
1.4 Tabassaran
0.8 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
If you mean people of mixed Jewish and Hungarian background, they do live in Budapest for sure, but from my research I didn't find any evidence that Jews had any real impact on the population of Budapest and its surroundings who are mostly of Hungarian ethnic origin, since the Red Sea, West Asian and East Med averages are one of the lowest among any Hungarian reference groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
European Jews mostly kept to themself, according to what I have been told they began mixing with locals quite recently (and only non religious ones)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
Yes, this is what I mean, Feiichy kinda missed the point. Jewish admixture, I wasn't talking about how many synagogues there are in Budapest and how many people attend them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
Since the end of WW2 they have been mixing a lot (non-Orthodox and outside of Israel obviously). In the Soviet Union that became common in the 1950-60s and in the US too, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
this is a t-sne, not a pca.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
if i got it right, t-sne groups samples in a dozen cloud-like clusters , and then similar clouds are placed close to each other.
every sample has to be placed in a cluster so similar samples can sometimes end up somewhat far away.
You asked weather there is significant Jewish population in Budapest. There is. But they are Jews, not Hungarians except some who assimilated but I don't think they are numerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Alfold Hungarians are now 2nd closest population to my father after Zagreb Croats. Pretty interesting, since he is typical Croat genetically.
Distance to: Feiichy_Father
3.16011076 Croat_Zagreb
3.22494021 Hungarian_Alfold
3.57088224 Croat_Bosnia
3.73426030 Croat_Herzegovina
3.76193260 Hungarian
3.82510131 Moldova_North
3.84637492 Croat_Split
3.90891289 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
4.05362259 Slovenian
4.09924495 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.41056686 Serb_B&H
4.48023785 Hungarian_Budapest
4.56132656 Bosniak
4.71285448 Hungarian_Szekely
4.88577145 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.89108972 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.96456443 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
4.99282485 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
5.13834908 Hungarian_Csango
5.44017463 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
5.76550085 Serb_Croatia
5.83325809 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
5.95590463 Serb_B&H_Krajina
6.15433181 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
6.33660793 Serb
I noticed how Croat_Zagreb scores much more northern than rest of Croatian references, almost on same level with Slovenian and Alföld. I would be also curious of a Croat_Slavonia reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
Here are brand new Croat averages Vbnethkio made from samples I send him:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
You can check how they compare to Hungarian ones.
Croat,27.48,32.33,15.42,8.08,12.72,1.46,0.47,0.28, 0.55,0.55,0.38,0.09,0.13
Croat_Bosnia,27.16,32.16,15.65,7.10,13.79,1.69,0.7 2,0.17,0.60,0.33,0.43,0.08,0.13
Croat_Central,30.74,33.57,14.42,7.73,9.37,1.29,0.9 1,0.08,0.44,0.55,0.56,0.06,0.37
Croat_Dalmatia,26.27,31.20,16.25,8.39,13.68,1.60,0 .44,0.25,0.59,0.55,0.49,0.13,0.14
Croat_Gorski-kotar,31.53,32.50,14.46,7.52,10.28,1.15,0.62,0.29, 0.53,0.55,0.31,0.14,0.12
Croat_Herzegovina,25.13,32.43,15.65,8.53,14.33,1.2 1,0.56,0.20,0.57,0.56,0.41,0.02,0.11
Croat_Istria,25.62,32.50,15.94,8.05,14.40,1.80,0.2 1,0.37,0.24,0.25,0.43,0.06,0.13
Croat_Lika-Senj,26.68,32.74,15.19,7.93,13.18,1.91,0.32,0.31,0 .60,0.53,0.40,0.11,0.11
Croat_Slavonia,27.54,30.87,14.31,10.36,13.14,1.12, 0.00,0.16,1.31,1.17,0.01,0.00,0.03
Croat_Tropolje,26.02,31.63,15.82,9.63,12.86,1.57,0 .38,0.59,0.53,0.63,0.12,0.11,0.11
Croat_Zagorje,31.65,34.32,13.07,7.78,8.75,1.54,0.7 4,0.55,0.29,0.82,0.23,0.09,0.16
Croat_Zagreb,28.94,33.94,14.98,7.10,11.16,1.43,0.3 7,0.44,0.52,0.44,0.47,0.15,0.17
I'll send them to Luksaz now.
Slavonia reference has very little samples unfortunately but I brought test for one Slavonian woman from my island week ago so her results will be added when I get them :)
So to be sure, I can add your Croat refs again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
Absolutely, they are replacement for current ones! :thumb001:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukasz
Central, Zagorje, Zagreb and Gorski Kotar are almost identical to many Hungarian samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
Stears is closest to Slavonian Croat current average, than North Moldovans, than Transylvanian Hungarians! Really interesting :)
Distance to: Stears
4.14781870 Croat_Slavonia
4.88169028 Moldova_North
5.19578764 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.28762388 Hungarian_Alfold
5.29694720 Hungarian
5.40105545 Croat
5.43560484 Croat_Tropolje
5.57366535 Hungarian_Budapest
5.63603584 Croat_Central
5.77897915 Croat_Gorski-kotar
5.81944896 Hungarian_Szekely
5.90114396 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.90746985 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
5.91869073 Croat_Zagreb
6.14769519 Slovenian
6.18825212 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.23872391 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.25715840 Hungarian_Csango
6.32157417 Croat_Zagorje
6.39435689 Croat_Dalmatia
6.41018720 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.55971798 Croat_Bosnia
6.68739112 Bosniak
6.81149763 Croat_Herzegovina
7.01682264 Serb_B&H
Target: Stears
Distance: 1.0356% / 1.03557685 | ADC: 0.25x
53.8 Croat_Slavonia
27.0 Croat_Zagorje
9.4 Hungarian_Budapest
4.6 Tatar
4.0 Kalash
1.2 North-Swedish
Me in comparison, Budapest Hungarians are my 3rd closest population :)
Distance to: Feiichy
4.42670306 Croat_Central
4.58312121 Croat_Gorski-kotar
4.67939706 Hungarian_Budapest
4.75888632 Slovenian
4.83755382 Hungarian
4.90199106 Hungarian_Alfold
5.09031433 Croat_Zagreb
5.17519082 Croat_Slavonia
5.34138559 Croat
5.35612192 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.41770247 Moldova_North
5.54846826 Croat_Zagorje
5.64329691 Croat_Tropolje
5.88796550 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.22590556 Croat_Lika-Senj
6.54262944 Croat_Dalmatia
6.68619473 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.75591943 Hungarian_Szekely
6.78040559 Croat_Bosnia
6.79453457 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
7.05248638 Hungarian_Northern
7.20816204 Serb_B&H
7.36825624 Bosniak
7.40686843 Croat_Herzegovina
7.44940266 Croat_Istria