Map of Europe showing WHG, Baltic HG, Yamnaya and Neolithic ancestry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rethel

Nope. It is correct.



Not only can, but it is the only way to define it.
In mesolithic there were still pure CM people, pre-WHG living side by side with WHG like.

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K. Then please tell which Paleo HG mixed with EHG to produce WHG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petalpusher

K. Then please tell which Paleo HG mixed with EHG to produce WHG.

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I had said allready, Cromagnion, and the last stage was the Bichon-like for example.

It is known since decades, that WHG is X+EHG, but for some time it was not named what the x was. Since couple of years it is allready known, but people act, like there never was a problem, and like whg would be the original component. Is not. It reminds me R1b-Basque morons, who for long time, and some still, couldn't accept the obvious thing, that R1b is not cromagnon neither vasconic, but is Indoeuropean.

yes, very central european even though I usually get yamnaya portion over 40%


Target: cakmir7y_scaled
Distance: 0.0407% / 0.04067869
39.4 TUR_Barcin_N
39.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.5 Baltic_LVA_HG


Distance to: cakmir7y_scaled
0.15575646 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.20341567 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.21025233 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.21496853 TUR_Barcin_N
0.25271190 Levant_PPNB
0.26112480 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.32364464 WHG
0.32941190 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.38769304 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.46304509 Jarawa
0.47976472 MAR_Taforalt
0.61159708 Han
0.61354607 Nganassan
0.61996107 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
0.65969061 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.67767102 ETH_4500BP
0.73796709 Dinka
0.75303065 Gambian
0.77878699 Yoruba
0.81521876 Papuan
0.93883008 Ju_hoan_North
0.95737352 Mbuti

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rethel

I had said allready, Cromagnion, and the last stage was the Bichon-like for example.

It is known since decades, that WHG is X+EHG, but for some time it was not named what the x was. Since couple of years it is allready known, but people act, like there never was a problem, and like whg would be the original component. it is not.

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No Paleo HG makes WHG of the Villabrunian cluster an intermediate between anything, let alone any Paleo HG and EHG and that's a fact. So no it's not known for decades, we would have to find a very peculiar Paleo HG for it to happen, unlike anything found so far, we haven't found it yet and it's very unlikely it will happen at this point. That group would have had to be numerous to influence and become defacto the main parent of the whole HG cline.


https://i.postimg.cc/qqtGCvJF/Paleol...lithic-PCA.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petalpusher

K. Then please tell which Paleo HG mixed with EHG to produce WHG.

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early WHG like Bichon had no ANE, and late ones like Loschbour already have 5-10% ANE or EHG. he is referring to that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

early WHG like Bichon had no ANE, and late ones like Loschbour already have 5-10% ANE or EHG. he is referring to that.

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I doubt it's his point, he s just trying to make EHG the end of all HG when it's actually the real intermediate, between WHG and ANE/AG people. We know there are all sorts of intermediate between WHG; SHG, EHG, ... and even between some Paleo and WHG, but there s nothing more removed than WHG that it would be out of the picture above and make Villabrunians intermediate as if they mixed with that ghost population and EHG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

early WHG like Bichon had no ANE, and late ones like Loschbour already have 5-10% ANE or EHG. he is referring to that.

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Yeah that isn't his point, he's a known crazy opinion person. We know Central Italian WHGs were the purest WHGs, other WHGs had very minor ANE, Villabruna even had R1b.

He also thinks Ma'lta boy was a mulatto rather than simply proto-ANE, and thinks Scandinavian HGs have "Indo-European" admixture. ANE/EHG is WHG+something, not the other way around, whether or not ANE admixture had reached WHGs as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesBond007

Wrong, it is just that commercial DNA tests are not scientific they don't want to contradict any potentially wrong preconceived notions about customers identity they might have and G25 is amateur mentally retatarded slavic science. Alright, I am being a little too harsh on G25 but the truth is that is too fine-grained especially for modern populations.

So, who is the master of physical anthropology here ? Arguably xenophobic Prussian. He puts me in Wales/Cornwall/Devonshire Britain . So, you don't want more generalized qpAdm/admix results because it's ultra nerdy ? Perfect is the enemy of good enough :


MyTrueAncestry :

1. Southwest_English (4.205)
2. Southeast_English (4.275)
3. North_Dutch (4.390)
4. Danish (4.722)
5. West_Scottish (4.930)
6. Irish (5.014)
7. Orcadian (5.114)
8. North_German (6.151)

Ok, so the average Englishman is probably about 21 percent Celtic/Irish or whatever. However, being from SouthWest England there can be more Celtic input. MTA FTW , again:

30 % Celtic with rest various Germanic tribes e.g. Saxons, Danish vikings, Franks, Norwegian vikings etc..

Is it telling me nerd shit like how much Steppe, WHG, and Baltic HG etc...I am ? No ! However, who cares if G25 is wrong ? Ok, G25 is flexible and nerdy but not always correct so fuck it ! MTA can tell me how much I match to some samples in ancient Britain it seems , as well , but I won't paste it here.

Also , phenotype is only a subset of genes of the underlying genotype so you can't rely solely on old-school anthropology.

The truth is out there my man !

*edit , yeah go ahead clowns continue looking down your noses at MyTrueAncestry ya'll niggers is sleeping on MTA and straight trippin' *

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Individual phenotype only gives a clue of someone's ancestry: shows some ancestry components out of many others (that may be muted in him/her but displayed on descendants). The larger the group, however, the more it becomes a science...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petalpusher

he s just trying to make EHG the end of all HG

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How end? It is just a one of separate au. That's it.

Quote:

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when it's actually the real intermediate, between WHG and ANE/AG people.

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Nope. WHG and ANE are intermediate.

Quote:

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We know there are all sorts of intermediate between WHG; SHG, EHG, ... and even between some Paleo and WHG,

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Yes, but it looks like that:

EHG+Bichon = WHG
WHG+EHG = SHG
EHG+AmInd = ANE
EHG+CHG = Yamna.

You can try to put it differently, but it would have no practical sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian

We know Central Italian WHGs were the purest WHGs, other WHGs had very minor ANE, Villabruna even had R1b.

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It isn't about how much it has. The fact it, that it has and that's enaugh.

Quote:

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He also thinks Ma'lta boy was a mulatto rather than simply proto-ANE

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Now you are lying. Not mulatto but castizo. And this is what ANE really is.
A small castizo boy, who serves as a pattern becasue was discovered first.
You, as a person who hates much more obvious truths, will never see it.

Quote:

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and thinks Scandinavian HGs have "Indo-European" admixture.

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It is not what I think, but what papers claim.
The only difference is, that I call EHG IE.

Target: An Ferbasach_scaled
Distance: 5.5944% / 0.05594434
48.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.8 TUR_Barcin_N
8.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
7.4 WHG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

early WHG like Bichon had no ANE, and late ones like Loschbour already have 5-10% ANE or EHG. he is referring to that.

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Correct. During the last glacial maximum there appears to be two slightly divergent WHG refugia in southern Europe one in Italy known as the Villabruna cluster and the other in Spain known as the El Miron cluster

Out of the two the Italian Villabruna cluster eventually became the dominant one in Europe and it appears that after the Ice Age some of those hunter-gatherers ventured into north eastern Europe and hybridized with a population similar to AG3.

This created a WHG-AG3 cline with EHG, which were about 70% AG3 and 30% WHG, on one pole and Latvia-HG and Mesolithic Ukraine-HG occupying intermediate positions on the cline and Loschbour-WHG close to the other pole.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/epw1vL4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MmlAcnj.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/4bQaOue.jpg[/IMG]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rethel

How end? It is just a one of separate au. That's it.

EHG+Bichon = WHG No
WHG+EHG = SHG Yes
EHG+AmInd = ANE No
EHG+CHG = Yamna. Yes

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Check the pca Zoro posted above and find me a Paleolithic HG to the right of the blue WHGs. There are none. The fact that Villabruna is slightly left of Bichon is irrelevant to the point WHG isn't a mix of some unknown Paleo/CM (whatever you call it) with EHG, they are part of the same cluster of WHG, it could even be explained by his R1 haplo but it might not even be the reason. Villabruna is slightly older than Bichon by the way.

On the other hand the re expansion of WHGs from their refuges created a cline as they met AG people in the northeast, making intermediates such as SHG, EHG and plenty others. It's like if you tell me Popovo isn't EHG because he appears slightly more WHG admixed than Karelia, it's not the point, he is an EHG. What you can see clearly however is that everything falls onto a cline between Afontova Gora (descending from ANE) and WHGs (team blue). WHG isn't an intermediate of anything, everything else is however, in the two main directions of other Paleos.

ANE predates EHG and Amerindian as an ethnicity, they mixed with NE Asians on their way to America through Beringia. Same when you say ANE was castizo or something, makes no sense. You are actually calling Castizos your beloved IE, because the PIE should have been pretty heavily ANE/AG. That might be the best part afterall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petalpusher

Check the pca Zoro posted above and find me a Paleolithic HG to the right of the blue WHGs. There are none. The fact that Villabruna is slightly left of Bichon is irrelevant to the point WHG isn't a mix of some unknown Paleo/CM (whatever you call it) with EHG, they are part of the same cluster of WHG, it could even be explained by his R1 haplo but it might not even be the reason. Villabruna is slightly older than Bichon by the way.

On the other hand the re expansion of WHGs from their refuges created a cline as they met AG people in the northeast, making intermediates such as SHG, EHG and plenty others. It's like if you tell me Popovo isn't EHG because he appears slightly more WHG admixed than Karelia, it's not the point, he is an EHG. What you can see clearly however is that everything falls onto a cline between Afontova Gora (descending from ANE) and WHGs (team blue). WHG isn't an intermediate of anything, everything else is however, in the two main directions of other Paleos.

ANE predates EHG and Amerindian as an ethnicity, they mixed with NE Asians on their way to America through Beringia. Same when you say ANE was castizo or something, makes no sense. You are actually calling Castizos your beloved IE, because the PIE should have been pretty heavily ANE/AG. That might be the best part afterall.

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So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro?

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That would be the Paleo groups on the left going up, and some others. Mesolithic descend partially from some of them but it's not like the ancient had necessarily non Euro admixture, some might, but in general they are just older, and the WHGs managed to remove themselves in isolation further. The more recent one tend to be more distant to East Asians, Africans and Oceanians. Vestonice seems to have a link with the Villabrunians cluster, Goyet for some of them like Loschbour, could be just common distant ancestry.

The term CM comes from the Dordogne skull that is 30ky old early Gravettian, so theorically he should have been more like the Paleos. Visually he looks like a WHG poster child but could be just proto WHG traits already in this individual. That was more a general term of a type from upper Paleo to mesolithic, before genetic came into play. We call all those ancients CM because we thought they were all the same but there was a structure already.

For the anecdote of the name itself, Cro means hole in old dialect from Perigord, and Magnon was just the name of the landlord of the time... so they called it Cro-Magnon, basically rock shelter in a hole on Magnon's land, where they found it.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline....f234f/gr1c.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sD0Fzwpq/2016-Fu-Figure1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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Yes, if anything, WHGs are more "Cro-Magnon" than actual Cro-Magnons, because they are as far away from other human populations as you can get.

Also, if Loschbour, etc had minor ANE(they probably did), Bichon likely did too. We already knew pops like Balkan_HG, Baltic_HG had ANE(because they can be modelled as earlier discovered samples of WHG and ANE/EHG, show both admixtures in supervised and unsupervised ADMIXTURE runs, and they are intermediary on a PCA between both populations), KO1 from Hungary was also thought to have ANE, and La Brana was thought to have minor EEF(he was pretty recent in terms of dating), but didn't know a person like Loschbour could have ANE because he was the furthest outlying population we had found thus far.

The purest WHGs thus far found are the ones recently found in mesolithic Central Italy(Bichon is closer to Villabruna), unsurprising as it's as far away(outside Iberia) from where ANE was in the east:

https://i.postimg.cc/pLsbRmYX/italypc2.png

btw random note, we know ANE probably did not cross the Volga west until atleast after 22k BC, because Dzudzuana in Georgia, a mix of WHG(proto-WHG that is, during the time of 22k BC WHG would've looked something like El Miron autosomally) and Basal Eurasian/Southern Caucasoid/Natufian, had 0 ANE, while CHG and modern Georgians have a lot.

Like Petalpusher said, various populations during the European paleolithic remained separated and had their own drift, but you cannot properly model WHG with paleo-Euros and any outside of Europe population, and WHG is outlying to both on a PCA plot, meaning WHG is just directly descended from paleolithic Europeans. More Iberian earlier WHGs will probably look like the Italian WHGs, again because Iberia is as far away from the east as possible, Iberia/Italy also had the highest population density of HGs in Europe given Iberian/Italian MN farmers had more WHG than even places like Germany, Hungary, UK, etc. Iberian HGs probably had more of the "El Miron" cluster group however, but it was pretty much the same thing as the proto-Villabruna cluster group. Again, like Petalpusher said, older, paleo-HGs had non-European affinity, but not non-European admixture, WHGs are basically "evolved" paleo Europeans.

Meanwhile, nutjob Rethel thinks EHG are the "pure" Europeans, when they are a simple mix of WHG and ANE(ANE is also a mix, but not as "simple", because it has a lot of its own drift too given the mix happened a very long time ago).

https://i.imgur.com/AESwXCN.jpg

Target: Hamilcar
Distance: 2.9112% / 0.02911248
28.6 MAR_Taforalt
26.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 Yoruba
2.0 WHG
0.6 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Mbuti


I don't see the point of putting two different anatolian sources. Also in the case of my people this EEF ancestry came with Iberia_N who already had absorbed some WHG (they were basically similar to modern-day sardinians).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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Yes, WHG/Villabruna is probably just one branch of west eurasians which drifted away. The other branches were GoyetQ116, Kostenki/Sunghir and UHG (which we don't have samples of yet, but it must have existed.) , and later there were various hybrids of these 4 branches.

Bichon is just the earliest WHG/Villabruna sample we have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universe

So WHGs are simply descendants of Cro-Magnons/Paleo-Euros without non-Euro admixture? Where would CMs plot on the PCA posted by Zoro, Bichon is example of a pure, unmixed CM?

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this is one of the possible models which shows all of this:
https://i.imgur.com/07G2Wzf.png

some other studies show slightly different models but the main thread is the same.

Very interesting explanations I read in the previous posts. Could someone make like a hierarchical chart or list about which are the oldest known European, or West Eurasian groups of people, and are followed by which later groups, and approximately when they appeared, out of which older groups? So WHGs are the descendants of the oldest homo sapiens of Europe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

Very interesting explanations I read in the previous posts. Could someone make like a hierarchical chart or list about which are the oldest known European, or West Eurasian groups of people, and are followed by which later groups, and approximately when they appeared, out of which older groups? So WHGs are the descendants of the oldest homo sapiens of Europe?

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something like this...

https://i.imgur.com/85ZOWCv.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

something like this...

https://i.imgur.com/KAtMbal.png

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So it seems most archaic West Eurasian groups went extinct and there was a bottleneck from which the WHGs came out victorious until the EEFs took them over in numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

So it seems most archaic West Eurasian groups went extinct and there was a bottleneck from which the WHGs came out victorious until the EEFs took them over in numbers.

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exactly. but the Sunghir/Kostenki cluster also survived, trough ANE, which ended up being the most succesful and widespread stone age population.

70% Sunghir/Kostenki + 30% East Eurasian -> ANE

70% ANE + 30% UHG -> EHG
30% ANE + 70% Dzudzuana -> CHG
50% ANE + 50% something similar to Dzudzuana in Iran -> Iran Mesolithic
50% ANE + 50% East Eurasian -> Amerindians

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

So it seems most archaic West Eurasian groups went extinct and there was a bottleneck from which the WHGs came out victorious until the EEFs took them over in numbers.

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What is unknown Hunter gatherer? And why does it make 50 percent of Natufian dna? Was it spread throughout Middle East or was it a European group that back migrated into Middle East?

Cro-Mags also do absolutely fabulous music, see song below (I recommend the whole album as well)

https://youtu.be/1Dfr8YcAnCU


one of the Cro Mags (bass, vocals)

https://nypost.com/wp-content/upload...y-flanagan.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MechtoidAfalouHG

What is unknown Hunter gatherer?

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it's something related to WHG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MechtoidAfalouHG

And why does it make 50 percent of Natufian dna? Was it spread throughout Middle East or was it a European group that back migrated into Middle East?

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I think currently option 1 is more popular. But we don't have enough samples to say for certain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

it's something related to WHG.


I think currently option 1 is more popular. But we don't have enough samples to say for certain.

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Is this component also present in Anatolian Hunter Gatherers? What can they be modelled as?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MechtoidAfalouHG

Is this component also present in Anatolian Hunter Gatherers? What can they be modelled as?

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Yes, Anatolian HG and Dzudzuana are identical. Later CHG is Dzudzuana+ANE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MechtoidAfalouHG

Is this component also present in Anatolian Hunter Gatherers? What can they be modelled as?

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AHG were similar to Dzudzuana, so around 50/50 UHG/Basal.

In my case it's exactly like G25's default run:

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 4.0115% / 0.04011473
52.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.4 WHG
3.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 Yoruba


1] "distance%=4.0205"
Anatolia_Barcin_N,52.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,32.4
WHG,10.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,3.2
Yoruba,1.8

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Damião de Góis

In my case it's exactly like G25's default run:

8

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:icon_yes:

Excepting that 0.4% Ju_hoan_North of my father, that formerly was part of his Ibero-Maurissian.

Spoiler!

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 3.7422% / 0.03742166
54.6 TUR_Barcin_N
29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.2 WHG
2.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 3.5734% / 0.03573365
58.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 WHG
3.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Ju_hoan_North

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 4.7260% / 0.04726048
52.6 TUR_Barcin_N
30.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.6 WHG
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Defcon_scaled
Distance: 4.8119% / 0.04811891
55.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.2 WHG
4.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
1.2 Gambian
0.6 Han

Gypsy, nigga and chinese. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nurzat

experimental K22 (Eurogenes standard G25 calculator plus 5 populations).

(Neolithic on the map is Barcin plus Tepecik-Çiftlik)

straight outta Paint xD

Code:

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TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP,0.050765,-0.3095332,0.1206032,0.098515,-0.1156522,-0.017626,-0.284645,-0.3400012,-0.0136212,-0.0184422,0.002241,-0.003267,0.0004162,0.017478,-0.0065688,0.0064438,0.006493,-0.001267,0.0026898,0.003727,-0.0010482,0.007963,-0.002662,-0.0043378,0.001413
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0096995
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028,0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
Han,0.0206952,-0.4507105,-0.0082967,-0.0651579,0.0780846,0.0374475,0.0029055,-0.004804,-0.0150232,-0.0031146,-0.0495875,-0.0070573,0.0072707,-0.0081072,-0.0043305,0.0012535,0.0017542,-0.0008638,-0.0020455,-0.0102206,0.0122397,0.0069582,0.0141063,-0.0012925,-0.0022315
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728,0.033009,-0.081242,-0.184789,0.125325,-0.09848,0.06777,0.002585,0.007615,0.03661,0.02606,-0.002273,0.010041,-0.005798,0.006744,0.004479,0.001326,0.008605,0.001267,0.00352,0.001376,0.003743,-0.004946,-0.00037,-0.00253,-0.007305
Jarawa,-0.0219821,-0.2430289,-0.1324164,0.0986968,0.0323713,-0.0045841,-0.01012,0.0065044,0.0546974,0.0238044,0.0228054,0.0027349,-0.0041532,0.0103562,-0.0108067,-0.0114441,0.0094529,-0.0019082,-0.0062221,0.0286778,-0.0046401,0.0111366,-0.0123402,0.0022668,0.0049844
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477,0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0.0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561,0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001,0.034147,-0.421445,0.150471,-0.002907,-0.14495,-0.082273,0.019741,0.035998,0.02577,0.000364,0.083792,-3e-04,0.015758,-0.048994,-0.04343,-0.029833,0.000652,0.005574,0.004902,-0.012381,0.026453,0.003462,0.001725,0.00723,0.012813
Mbuti,-0.647426,0.0591038,0.0254932,0.0374034,-0.001108,0.0066378,0.3663348,-0.293434,0.0177118,0.02985,-0.0089316,0.2198242,0.1264506,0.0010182,0.010342,-0.0014052,0.0009386,-0.0518664,0.014229,0.003727,0.0061144,-0.0018548,-0.0043878,0.0025304,-0.0006944
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Papuan,-0.0459844,-0.2410866,-0.2637584,0.3092414,0.2069308,-0.509589,-0.001974,0.0070152,-0.041273,-0.0119546,-0.018902,0.000869,0.0013974,-0.00311,0.0001628,-0.0003186,-0.0021906,-0.0018498,-0.001081,-0.0015256,0.0023458,0.0018052,0.0012324,0.0018314,0.0016048

---

https://i.imgur.com/ySUjFu5.png

---

All of Italy's results are wrong on the map, or have been artificially moved to the 'north'.


Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 1.4499% / 0.01449917
45.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.4 TUR_Barcin_N
5.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.6 Levant_PPNB
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 WHG



Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 1.8493% / 0.01849258
46.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.6 TUR_Barcin_N
2.8 WHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_PPNB
0.4 MAR_Taforalt



Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 3.0906% / 0.03090609
51.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.8 WHG

I think this source is more efficient at distinguishing Yamnaya from other components.



Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477, 0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
EHG,0.12862,0.032497,0.125958,0.221902,0.003385,0. 056057,-0.014571,-0.010615,0.007567,-0.084011,0.009581,-0.029674,0.047423,-0.018304,0.014794,0.041766,-0.020079,0.002154,-0.007668,0.003252,-0.01435,0.017188,0.005916,-0.027594,-0.00958
EHG,0.120652,0.099522,0.149717,0.188633,0.060319,0 .049643,0.003995,0.01223,0.038655,-0.041003,0.006333,-0.028175,0.04103,-0.009083,0.013708,0.036064,0.01708,-0.006461,-0.008296,0.038018,0.042425,0.012242,-0.00456,-0.074348,-0.002275
GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
EHG,0.12862,0.032497,0.125958,0.221902,0.003385,0. 056057,-0.014571,-0.010615,0.007567,-0.084011,0.009581,-0.029674,0.047423,-0.018304,0.014794,0.041766,-0.020079,0.002154,-0.007668,0.003252,-0.01435,0.017188,0.005916,-0.027594,-0.00958
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o:I7722,0.036423,-0.091398,-0.168573,0.129847,-0.079707,0.063587,-0.005405,0.016845,0.051949,0.030069,-0.007632,0.001049,0.000297,0.004404,-0.000407,-0.017369,-0.002086,-0.002914,0.002891,0.008254,0.00861,0.004204,0.0024 65,0.006868,-0.005868
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11466,0.044391,-0.020311,-0.171213,0.076551,-0.104635,0.054105,0.010105,-0.010384,-0.00225,0.019499,-0.008282,0.014237,-0.007136,-0.012386,0.018187,0.026783,0.011865,0.010135,0.003 017,-0.014632,0.00836,-0.013973,0.003081,-0.006266,0.008023
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA,0.0921967,0.1462363,-0.061722,-0.0915167,-0.0139513,-0.0366277,0.0032117,-0.008846,0.0072263,0.012635,0.015535,-0.015736,0.018781,0.0088997,-0.0078717,0.008972,-0.0043027,0.0013093,-0.0006287,-0.0070033,0.0020797,0.000371,-0.00608,0.002812,0.003832
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Saami,0.1112621,-0.0302122,0.111722,0.079781,-0.0093286,0.008297,0.0081371,0.0138599,0.0029656,-0.0320964,0.0222877,-0.0074746,0.0180716,-0.0198263,-0.0040038,0.0026933,0.0011571,-0.0014886,-0.0059862,0.0044944,0.0158158,0.0013447,-0.0025649,0.0026584,0.0003442
Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L.o.l.i.t.a

All of Italy's results are wrong on the map, or have been artificially moved to the 'north'.


Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 1.4499% / 0.01449917
45.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.4 TUR_Barcin_N
5.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.6 Levant_PPNB
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 WHG



Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 1.8493% / 0.01849258
46.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.6 TUR_Barcin_N
2.8 WHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Levant_PPNB
0.4 MAR_Taforalt



Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 3.0906% / 0.03090609
51.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.8 WHG

---

They fit for Apulia, Tuscany and Bergamo or with 0.25 penalty. But yeah, the map is not particularly representative.

Target: 7.62x39_scaled
Distance: 4.6963% / 0.04696294
36.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
30.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.6 EHG
4.0 Saami
2.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.4 GEO_CHG


Saami is fake that should be added to my EHG score

Target: Grabiel_scaled
Distance: 3.2840% / 0.03284031
56.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 WHG
3.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
1.8 GEO_CHG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

exactly. but the Sunghir/Kostenki cluster also survived, trough ANE, which ended up being the most succesful and widespread stone age population.

70% Sunghir/Kostenki + 30% East Eurasian -> ANE

70% ANE + 30% UHG -> EHG
30% ANE + 70% Dzudzuana -> CHG
50% ANE + 50% something similar to Dzudzuana in Iran -> Iran Mesolithic
50% ANE + 50% East Eurasian -> Amerindians

---

And from which groups did Scandinavian and Baltic HGs but also Yamnaya come from?

AHG is more related to Iron Gates (Balkan WHG), Itself sharing excess of something with AHG too, could be multi directionnal geneflow. Which could make sense even geographically and in timeframe, considering the intermediate position of IG to Villabruna and Pinarbasi, as AHG affinity is still high with some other WHGs like Villabruna, Ranchot and Bichon, the whole crew gravitating around the Alps.

https://i.postimg.cc/brFZX1Jj/Geneti...c-affinity.png

SHG is just WHG with some EHG/AG, but less than EHG. More or less 3/4 WHG + 1/4 AG.

Yamnaya is EHG + CHG, or Iran_N which is even more likely chronologically as BA is just afterwards neolithic and CHG Satsurblia is Paleolithic but both models work, CHG/Iran_N are close anyway, as close as Early Neo and Euro middle Neo (same thing with more WHG), except CHG was more AG before becoming more basal, reverse pull in the Caucasus through time.
https://i.postimg.cc/6QNL1xgf/Locati...ividuals-a.png


Bell Beaker is Yamnaya + MN/LN as IE settled in Europe and absorbed local farmers, mostly females, hence the R bias today. The usual thing anyway everytime a new comer arrives. As well as all sorts of other intermediates like CW and other BB varieties.

https://i.postimg.cc/Nfmx80Pj/Analys...-and-Early.png

Would be 50/50 with a MN or LN instead of early N, again rather what actually happens because IE were not there yet in the early neo (but it's a model to check WHG re emergence too here)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dunai

And from which groups did Scandinavian and Baltic HGs but also Yamnaya come from?

---

Sandinavian and Baltic HGs were a mix of WHG and EHG to various degrees, and Yamnaya was halfway between EHG and CHG, with a bit of EEF (10-15%)

https://i.imgur.com/8xctkVm.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petalpusher

AHG is more related to Iron Gates (Balkan WHG), Itself sharing excess of something with AHG too, could be multi directionnal geneflow. Which could make sense even geographically and in timeframe, considering the intermediate position of IG to Villabruna and Pinarbasi, as AHG affinity is still high with some other WHGs like Villabruna, Ranchot and Bichon, the whole crew gravitating around the Alps.

https://i.postimg.cc/brFZX1Jj/Geneti...c-affinity.png

SHG is just WHG with some EHG/AG, but less than EHG. More or less 3/4 WHG + 1/4 AG.

Yamnaya is EHG + CHG, or Iran_N which is even more likely chronologically as BA is just afterwards neolithic and CHG Satsurblia is Paleolithic but both models work, CHG/Iran_N are close anyway, as close as Early Neo and Euro middle Neo (same thing with more WHG), except CHG was more AG before becoming more basal, reverse pull in the Caucasus through time.
https://i.postimg.cc/6QNL1xgf/Locati...ividuals-a.png


Bell Beaker is Yamnaya + MN/LN as IE settled in Europe and absorbed local farmers, mostly females, hence the R bias today. The usual thing anyway everytime a new comer arrives. As well as all sorts of other intermediates like CW and other BB varieties.

https://i.postimg.cc/Nfmx80Pj/Analys...-and-Early.png

Would be 50/50 with a MN or LN instead of early N, again rather what actually happens because IE were not there yet in the early neo (but it's a model to check WHG re emergence too here)

---

Bell beakers descend from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya. Corded Ware and Yamnaya were autosomally similar, but they had completely different Y-DNA, Yamnaya was exclusively R1b-Z2103, while Corded ware had R1a and R-l51. There's no explanation yet how this came to be.