"35%-55% Ashkenazis are of European Descent"

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Exactly my point. It's very different. One of my close friends is a Sephardic Jew of Iraqi and Iranian descent. She and a Jew for Georgia would not have much in common at all.

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A Jew from Iran or Iraq cannot be Sephardi , it hadn't any connection to the Iberian peninsula. However a Georgian Jew is often classed as Mizrahi as a Jew from Iraq when the culture difference is like a Russian and an English.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

My father was born in France. His parents were born in France. Two of their grandparents were born in France, one other was from Romania, and the last was from Austria. There have been gentiles in my family, as well as apostates and converts to and from Judaism. But no one in my family has been born outside of Europe.

And Catholicism came long after paganism in France.

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So your farther doesn't know if he is fully Jew because of intra-religieus marriage within his French family? It's pretty common , Parisians of the after WW2 are often a mess of mixes.

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Originally Posted by Hess

here is my view, in a nutshell-

I really couldn't be bothered if their eyes are bluer than sapphires or if their hair is blonder than a polar bear's ass.


Being European involves MUCH more than just genetics- it's a culture, mentality, and way of life that Jews lack.

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Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

A Jew from Iran or Iraq cannot be Sephardi , it hadn't any connection to the Iberian peninsula. However a Georgian Jew is often classed as Mizrahi as a Jew from Iraq when the culture difference is like a Russian and an English.

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Well, you can tell her that then.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

So your farther doesn't know if he is fully Jew because of intra-religieus marriage within his French family? It's pretty common , Parisians of the after WW2 are often a mess of mixes.

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This is where things start to become subjective. Some people consider secular Ashkenazis to be European, and some don't. Judaism is an ethno-religious group. Not a race.

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Originally Posted by Mercury

Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

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Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

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There are European Jews. I agree with you Jews as a whole , as a diaspora ethnic group around the world are West Asian. Not every Jew is European.
But there are Jews who have lived in Europe or were Europeanized that they are basically European Jews as simple as that . An Ashkenazi child born in the deep woods of Lithuania is certainly not a Middle-Easterner , he is a Jew right but of the European kind.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

There are European Jews. I agree with you Jews as a whole , as a diaspora ethnic group around the world are West Asian. However there are Jews who have lived in Europe and/or were Europeanized that they are European Jews. An Ashkenazi child born in the deep woods of Lithuania is certainly not a Middle-Easterner , he is a Jew right but of the European kind.

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How is the child European? Do you mean a European citizen?

Albion's list of controversial topics to avoid:

• Anything to do with Ireland
• South Africa and the Boer War
• American politics
• National Socialism

New entry: Jews

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Originally Posted by Whitebastard

I am surprised that British act like this. British culture touched almost every culture in the world to some point. In some time chinese culture will touch yours. Then you wont act like this. I do not care nor about yours nor chinese but if it has to be any id rather choose british.
China and whole asians are on rise.
So you see I am not for preservation of someones culture on some other indirect way.
As I have said on some thread before I know a lot people Croats or foreign who are so obsessed with Japanese culture that their wear kimono inside the house all the time. That is total opposite of what this forum stands for.
No one thinks about this.

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I am zorry , me no underztand

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Originally Posted by Beorn

How is the child European? Do you mean a European citizen?

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Every non Basque is just a European Citizen

Aren't Afrikaaners /Boers considered as "White Africans" or even just "South African" ? So I don't see any opposition in that case as well.

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Originally Posted by Mercury

Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

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Stop identifying themselves with, and BEING identified with, this;
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Ancient_Judah.gif

For a Jew to become European, they have to cease being a Jew. Only then can their progeny from a mixed marriage have some chance at this. Even then, the Jewish culture has to slip out of living memory.

Mercury, your comments apply to the Gypsies too.
http://www.stellasmagazine.com/img/m...s/cigani12.jpg

Without intermarrying with us, and giving up their distinctive culture, Jews remain foreign. Our respective ancestors have lived VASTLY different histories. Denying the importance of this is disrespectful of BOTH of them.

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Originally Posted by El Comunero Errante

I am zorry , me no underztand

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hahahaa i really do not know what I said hahah I am sorrY

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith. The way I was brought up would not look anything like the way a Jew from Kai Feng grew up. There are certain Jewish customs that are consistent, but he same can be said for a Catholic Brit and a Catholic Mexican.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith.

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Do Jews in Singapore worship a different God to the Jews living in West Philadelphia?

I have noticed that people tend to think that ali Jews are not white ( I admit that sometimes I can be eurocentric and I refuse to think that people I have learned about on college are not white though to some they are partially white ).
But when it comes close to considering them white people start to say how they have different culture, different way of life....
I have met over facebook people of different euro nationalities who became muslims and they live muslim way of life. Then according to some they are white but can not be considering European?

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Originally Posted by Beorn

Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

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I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith. The way I was brought up would not look anything like the way a Jew from Kai Feng grew up. There are certain Jewish customs that are consistent, but he same can be said for a Catholic Brit and a Catholic Mexican.

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Catholic Brits and Catholic Mexicans share common ancestors from when? Several centuries to a couple of millennia for the Iberian side, and several TENS of millennia for the Indio side. :yawn:

Some US WASP idiot who goes to Israel on holiday and 'converts' after some 'spiritual experience' is not a Jew. They're just an idiot.

Jews in England are foreign to the English. Jews in Kaifeng are foreign to the Chinks. End of story. There are many Jewish cultures, but they all go back to the same root. That diaspora peoples diverge with time and geography is no big news. Still foreigners, though. Try again, kiddo. :coffee:

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Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

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Politically and culturally, yes, but with the exception of a few fringe fruit bats, the English wouldn't argue themselves not being European in a 'racial sense'.

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Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

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catastrophic yes and it is the source of todays immigration to western European countries and the US because when the racist ww2 was over westerners could not refuse immigrants solely because of ww2. After ww2 massive immigration begins and people could not use nationalist card as a way of turning down the immiigrants. It is either this or Jewish agenda according to some

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Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

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This is not forum for the following topic but I simply could not help my self not to since you mention it
Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders? I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

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Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

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No one disputes the English are European apart from the English themselves. :icon_lol:

Today most English people see themselves as English, British and European, but identifying as an ethnicity of Europe doesn't give us any will to be integrated into it.
On the contrary, the English travel much more often to Europe because it is more convenient, but culturally our nearest kin is the Anglosphere and most here recognise that. America is seen as the black sheep of the Anglosphere, but that's because its more distinctive than the others having developed earlier.

The English europhiles are a minority (I use the term "europhile" to refer to the EU and European federalism, not Europe the continent). They tend to be the worst sorts of people, not a patriotic bone in their body and usually quite traitorous.
They're a pessimistic bunch and all their arguments are based around the apparent strength European unity would create. However, most English people are centre right and against further EU integration and many are for leaving the EU and repairing ties to the Anglosphere.

The American media might report us to be a load of Europhiles, but it is hardly the case.

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I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

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An interesting idea, but I doubt Jews would just forget their religion. They'd hide it as they did in Spain.

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Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders?

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Because islands breed insularity. This is often brushed off as just some slur, but it is true to an extent.
The British peoples have less contact with other European countries than they do with each other. The approach to Europe and North America is that they contain allies, friends and trade opportunities together with ethnic links and a few arse hole politicians.

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I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

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What do you mean, distrust of foreigners? That is seen here but it can be expected, for so long the British went to other British colonies and ruled over lesser peoples in the third world instead of going to Europe.
Today they go to Europe frequently (most at least), but English culture is essentially self-confident and the English basically believe they have a good system and resent any outside influences that would argue otherwise. This self-confidence is also part of the reason for the lack of bold, open patriotism in England, the English don't feel any need to go around flag waving or boasting about their identity such as the Scots do.

The Scots can be seen as the exact opposite, they are very openly patriotic because they want to be seen as distinct from the English who are the dominant force of the Isles.

It might sound somewhat arrogant, but England is a very old nation which has never really been occupied or invaded by a more powerful state as most countries in Europe have.
The Normans can be seen as the political foundation of England, it is with them that the militaristic, highly-centralised and over-governed modern English state formed. Before them the Germanics left the basis of the government and organisation, but the Normans really developed it to the full potential.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

Politically and culturally, yes, but with the exception of a few fringe fruit bats, the English wouldn't argue themselves not being European in a 'racial sense'.

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I agree with that. By the same token neither would an American. ;)

It's not surprising that 35% - 55% of all Ashkenazi Jews are of European genes. They've lived for a very long time in Europe, and obviously picked up genes from there.

Racially speaking, most Jews look like vaguely exotic Caucasoids who stick out in a North European country. Someone else brought up Robert Oppenheimer as an example. I guess most people think of Ashkenazi Jews as "white ethnics" nowadays.

Out of all Jews, it's just the Ashkenazim who can qualify as "racially European". So I guess they could become actual Europeans if they assimilated culturally as well. So that's my opinion on this: some Jews are European, others are not.

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Originally Posted by Osweo

I heard the Sefardim are doing well in Israel itself however, on the eve of shunting the Ashkenazim aside as the dominant force there. Is my info outdated?

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Not at all the Sephardim have been slowly replacig the Ashkenazim as the dominant force in Israel. This has led to a greater Sephardic influence which has brought Israel into being more Middle Eastern than European. So no your info is actually currently dated. Sephardic Jews in recent times have assimilated the more Semitic and darker skinned Mizharim and Temanim Jews who are all called Sephardic due to this and the rite they follow. However true Sephardics although more Semitic than Ashkenazim, they have also a good amount of European genetics, but now days they have become more Middle Eastern and Semitic than the Ashkenazim. The Israelite ancestry is best preserved among the Mizharim, and the Temanim are just Arabian converts, but nowdays they all became Sephardics.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

Do Jews in Singapore worship a different God to the Jews living in West Philadelphia?

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Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

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You tell me. It seems religious culture is up for questioning by your very self. :)

Jews are not European even if they have ethnic and cultural ties to Europe over a while. They still are Jews in retrospect, although they are Jews of partial European identity, but I still refer to them first as Jews before I identify them as European. Jewish is their primary identity, and being European is a secondary one, and this applies to any race-mixed individual.


Actually with most of other race-mixes I would not even consider them to be part European even if they had cultural and ethnic European heritage. It does not matter whether or not Jews or other Non-Europeans lived in Europe for some time. They are still going to be considered Non-Europeans regardless, just like any European should be considered European if they settled in a Non-European country for a while.


That said a lot of Jews did like to see themselves as German, Polish, or Lithuanian once they started to integrate more into these cultures or absorbed some of these ethnicties in their bloodlines. Even then we still refer to these Jews as German Jews or Polish Jews, so it would be quite fallacious to say Jews are Europeans, because this would negate what they really are.

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Originally Posted by Osweo

Catholic Brits and Catholic Mexicans share common ancestors from when? Several centuries to a couple of millennia for the Iberian side, and several TENS of millennia for the Indio side. :yawn:

Some US WASP idiot who goes to Israel on holiday and 'converts' after some 'spiritual experience' is not a Jew. They're just an idiot.

Jews in England are foreign to the English. Jews in Kaifeng are foreign to the Chinks. End of story. There are many Jewish cultures, but they all go back to the same root. That diaspora peoples diverge with time and geography is no big news. Still foreigners, though. Try again, kiddo. :coffee:

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Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

You tell me. It seems religious culture is up for questioning by your very self. :)

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Religious culture is very much up to questioning, because a person from any culture can believe whatever they want. Well, maybe not in the Arab world.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

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This is getting STUPID.

Converts to Judaism, in historical times, were absorbed into the Jewish people, or even converted ONLY to be able to marry into it. Malays and African Americans were converted to Catholicism in utterly different and non-analogous ways. Honestly, are you really so intellectually challenged, or are you just playing with us?

Judaism is an ethnic religion. The Jews are an ethnic category. Perhaps verging more on the superethnos level than strictly ethnos. But the blood connections are there.

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

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Originally Posted by Thunor

It's not surprising that 35% - 55% of all Ashkenazi Jews are of European genes. They've lived for a very long time in Europe, and obviously picked up genes from there.

Racially speaking, most Jews look like vaguely exotic Caucasoids who stick out in a North European country. Someone else brought up Robert Oppenheimer as an example. I guess most people think of Ashkenazi Jews as "white ethnics" nowadays.

Out of all Jews, it's just the Ashkenazim who can qualify as "racially European". So I guess they could become actual Europeans if they assimilated culturally as well. So that's my opinion on this: some Jews are European, others are not.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Osweo

This is getting STUPID.

Converts to Judaism, in historical times, were absorbed into the Jewish people, or even converted ONLY to be able to marry into it. Malays and African Americans were converted to Catholicism in utterly different and non-analogous ways. Honestly, are you really so intellectually challenged, or are you just playing with us?

Judaism is an ethnic religion. The Jews are an ethnic category. Perhaps verging more on the superethnos level than strictly ethnos. But the blood connections are there.

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

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Name calling. Very nice.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.

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The difference is that Judaism is still largely confined to the same ancestral Jewish population that it ever was with few European converts whilst Christianity is of the majority.
I think Judaism is seen as weird, that is probably one of the reasons for its lacklustre appeal to Europeans.

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Originally Posted by Whitebastard

This is not forum for the following topic but I simply could not help my self not to since you mention it
Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders? I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

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My husband tends to identify as 'British' before 'European'. Were the UK not part of the EU, he probably wouldn't identify as being European much. Only some British people feel this way though.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Religious culture is very much up to questioning, because a person from any culture can believe whatever they want. Well, maybe not in the Arab world.

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You said: "'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith."

An example of this logic: 'English culture doesn't exist because there are people from all over the world who have embraced English culture.

Therefore, English culture doesn't exist.Yes?

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Originally Posted by Albion

The difference is that Judaism is still largely confined to the same ancestral Jewish population that it ever was with few European converts whilst Christianity is of the majority.
I think Judaism is seen as weird, that is probably one of the reasons for its lacklustre appeal to Europeans.

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I agree with you for the most part. Judaism would be seen as less weird if it wasn't such a rarity. Jewish people have only really started fully assimilating over the past couple of hundred years, and there's a huge gap between assimilated Jews and insular religious Jews. I would not consider the latter to be white/European by any stretch.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

You said: "'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith."

An example of this logic: 'English culture doesn't exist because there are people from all over the world who have embraced English culture.

Therefore, English culture doesn't exist.Yes?

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'English' is neither a religion nor an ethno-religious grouping.

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Originally Posted by Osweo

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

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