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I am talking about genetics not politics. They are free to think, feel and do how they like it. Good for them and those Sandžakians have done a good job with their DNA project.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
As for Bosniak ethnic identity it is more complex than how you presented it. It does have strong medieval basis, as those mentioned, while correlation with religious affiliation like Croatian and Serbian. All of them are more or less modern inventions.
No, because the ancestors of these people rejected their medieval heritage the moment they accepted islam. None of those wealthy beys had any clue who Tvrtko and Kulin ban were or their own connection to the land. Hell, most of them simply identified as Turks :D Serbs and Croats on the other hand have always been adherents to the same faith and their folklore and heritage reflect their medieval and post-medieval past.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
Some of the modern cohesive factors of the Bosniak identity were only recently brought up by their intelectual elites, i. e. the stećci, krstjani, etc.
When accepted Christianity and other cultural customs did pagan Croats and Serbs become Greco-Romans or Judeo-Christians? No, but could have. Let's leave it at it is complex...Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
Serbs and Croats have ethnic consciousness from centuries, gaining legitimacy to build an ethnic identity despite moving territories (that's why there are Serbs and Croats outside proper Serbia and Croatia), that have become natural feelings, even if there are some genetical heterogeneity.
In the case of Bosniaks, it's a recent identification that came too late in the course of history (ethnic nationalism was a 19th century concept), in the sense that in our postmodern globalized world, the ethnic-national identities are much more liquid and less relevant than before, so it's hard to create a strong identity in the late 20th-early 21st centuries. This is also why they are unable to maintain a functional state because there is no central Bosnia identity firstly, and not even strong Bosniak identity to impose it over others. IMO Bosnia Bosniaks would be better off to let Republika Srpska join Serbia and to be annexed to Croatia.
Another controversial case is the Serb-Montenegrin division, as we can say in the political scene of Montenegro.
Greeks had an empire and great civilizations for centuries, they have been able to assimilate colonized people in Anatolia and Islands; so despite genetic diversity nowadays (especially with Pontians, Cypriots, Cappadoceans), they have a strong pan-Hellenic identity that legitimize the Greek umbrella identity.
Same with Turks, it's a large country of more than 2000 km, with regional differences between West and East and North, but unified for centuries under a civilization and empire (Ottoman-Islamic), that legitimize a common Turkish ethnic identity between a Yörük from Southwest and a Trabzonian from Northeast.
Nice post, but the confusion arises between the meaning of Bosnian and Bosniak. The former is medieval and they are trying to reconnect it with the post-Ottoman & more modern identity. It is legitimate since it is still the same population and dialect. The same history they inherited. Will leave it at that.
I told you from the very first beginning about her ancestors and the lack of Sorbs among her whole known and researched ancestry! Otherwise her DNA result would not have been a surprise. You obviously preferred not to tell about her ethnic German ancestry to Davidski. This is really incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
And you were well aware of her only known ethnic German ancestry. Otherwise you would not have suggested to check for a NPE.
I didn't change my mind in how to call her. Why should I "insist" on calling her a German, when that was never a topic? There was never a talk about that you would take that woman as a reference for a Sorb. I remember well how I thought about it being a bad joke when I later got to know that she was labeled Sorb and used as a respective reference. So it was not even a misunderstanding, but a deliberate lie about her ethnicity. That you seriously try to defend that manipulation disqualifies you enduringly as a reliable source for anything.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Hey Alter, do we actually need that outlier in the spreadsheet? Piotr won't leave it alone. If it's just an assimilated Sorbian family, let it be Sorbian for genetic purposes because nowadays big languages are spoken by all sorts of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
It looks more logical like this :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Code:Distance to: Duan
2.99684634 60.00% Sorbian + 40.00% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.05662272 37.00% Sorbian + 63.00% Moldovan_South
3.15036793 62.40% Sorbian + 37.60% Greek_Eastern_Thrace
3.15255447 47.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl + 52.20% Torbesh
3.22959276 66.00% Sorbian + 34.00% Greek_Athens
3.26174619 48.80% Gagauz + 51.20% Sorbian
3.26749765 63.00% Sorbian + 37.00% Greek_Peloponnese
3.27490210 53.20% Albanian_Gheg + 46.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.28290686 65.40% Sorbian + 34.60% Greek_Central
3.29547691 58.80% Sorbian + 41.20% Torbesh
3.30894402 60.60% Sorbian + 39.40% Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
3.32614797 62.20% Sorbian + 37.80% Greek_Western
3.33168204 42.20% Albanian_Gheg + 57.80% Sorbian
3.37087127 52.00% Bulgarian_Southcentral + 48.00% Sorbian
3.39539371 45.40% German_East_Prussia_Memelland + 54.60% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.40265402 40.80% Albanian + 59.20% Sorbian
3.40313615 71.40% Sorbian + 28.60% Greek_North_Aegean
3.41701210 42.80% Sorbian + 57.20% Romanian_Dobruja
3.41782023 74.60% Sorbian + 25.40% Greek_Symi
3.42376172 68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Ionia
3.43945279 52.00% Albanian + 48.00% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.45853400 60.20% Sorbian + 39.80% Greek_Thessaly
3.46017343 55.60% Sorbian + 44.40% North_Macedonian_South
3.46388139 54.40% Sorbian + 45.60% Greek_Northern_Thrace
3.46978529 58.80% Bulgarian_Northwestern + 41.20% Sorbian
3.48561544 70.00% Sorbian + 30.00% Italian_Sicily
3.49441510 68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Cyclades
3.51017353 47.40% Bulgarian_Southeastern + 52.60% Sorbian
3.52466397 53.60% Bulgarian + 46.40% Sorbian
3.53201934 69.60% Sorbian + 30.40% Italian_Apulia
Haha, yep. The "official" Sorbian average has more Western blood than that supposedly German woman. See the huge distance between them:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Distance to: Sorb
3.25868071 Upper_Silesia
3.28952884 Polish_South
3.32580817 Polish_Lesser_Poland
3.41367837 Polish_Greater_Poland
4.40064768 German_West_Prussia
4.66282103 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
4.70422151 Czech
4.89182992 Polish_Silesia
5.10763155 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
5.22096734 Polish_Subcarpathia
5.57266543 Polish_Kujavia
5.74609433 Slovak
5.85506618 Polish
6.44893790 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.13325311 Polish_Mazovia
7.28457274 Ukrainian_South
7.29851355 Polish_Podlaskie
7.81752518 Ukrainian_Moldova
7.85799593 Ukrainian_Northwest
8.06015509 Ukrainian
8.13410720 Hungarian_North
8.22238408 Ukrainian_North
8.26645027 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
8.66050229 German_Saxony
8.68047234 Slovene
Next time I'm going to add a third generation British Jamaican who lives in London, drinks tea, eats fish and chips, watches football and supports the monarchy. :cool: