Printable View
On a more serious note - are those Prussian averages representative? I'm asking because I know of a Russian American woman (posted her on TA years ago), she has 7 great-grandparents who were born in modern Russia and one who was born in modern Poland (Suprasl, Podlaskie voivodeship). The latter was of German ethnicity on paper (hardcore German names and last names). But the woman herself scores zero Germanic, as if she was 100% Russian.
This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.
His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.
Individual results and population averages are 2 different things, they shouldn't be mixed.
I agree. This was my first wish after I first saw her results. Already one more sample with that local ancestry would enlight.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
In case she would not be represantative for that more local area it and would just be a personal variation (is that possible to such a big degree?) she should not be used at all. But maybe she is representative there. I think having her mentioned and marking that result an outlier in a Brandenburg context is the most careful and observant way to handle that result. Nobody will misunderstand an outlier as representative and on the other hand we did not hide this existing result. Maybe there is something to detect.
Thanks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
So it's about someone with 7/8 Russian and 1/8 German ancestry, where you ask for the characteristics of that German ancestry? As for Prussia, do you refer to East Prussia, where there are three averages? If so, there were such different populations. The averages are based of few samples just, but in tendency that will be applicable, yes. As for the variation there will always remain some question marks. But for East Prussia Masuria f. i. there are two confirmed deeply rooted kits, one from the easternmost and one from the westernmost area and they both score very similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
As for "German ethnicity on paper": I don't know what you think about German ethnicity. It's not defined by gentics, but by historical development and whether these individuals traditionally speak German or not. Seemimgly they did. So they are Germans. Genetics play also a role, but just as making the borders of what historically und undisputedly became German. Genetics beyond that border can not really be German, but what you describe lies within these borders.
Yes, I have seen collections of Balkan results from the same village or micro-region where a component can have a range of 9, 10, or even 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
That's simply how fully intermixed populations act in genetic software, including G25.
Big immigration centres with free intermarriage have even bigger ranges.
People from this whole region (especially from the eastern half of it, between Storkow-Beskow) will all have similar results:Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
https://www.sorabicon.de/kulturlexik...v_ib2_m3d_r3b/
https://www.sorabicon.de/wp-content/...rankackowa.jpg
West Prussia in particular has large sample size for our standards (like 10 or something), Pomerania isn't bad either. Yes. Prussian averages look fine.
Yes, I was asking whether in the case of that woman her German was undetectable by Gedmatch because it was initially heavily Eastern European. 1/8 is not a lot, unless it's Chinese, black or Amerindian. But she did get 6.8% "broadly Northwestern European" back in 2017. No idea about her current results, I think she is more into genealogy than race and doesn't care much about ancestry compositions.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Personal variation can be quite big even in small areas. Carloforte is a good example:Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carloforte
^^^ This is the only town on San Pietro Island:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pietro_Island
The town has just 6000 inhabitants of whom 25 were tested and DNA was published.
All of 25 people are native to this population - of course. Here their G25 coordinates:
^^^Code:Carloforte:Carloforte1,0.118376,0.140143,0.029415,-0.015181,0.032621,-0.001673,-0.004935,0.007384,0.014112,0.023873,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018434,-0.012661,-0.000136,0.004508,0.006389,-0.00076,0.005279,0.002126,0.00025,0.001607,-0.002095,0.007109,-0.000599
Carloforte:Carloforte2,0.111547,0.149283,0.019987,-0.024225,0.031083,0.000558,-0.008695,-0.005307,0.014521,0.040456,0.002923,0.006294,-0.011447,-0.012799,-0.011808,0.005834,0.022296,0.001394,-0.004651,-0.002876,0.003619,0.002473,-0.001725,0.00482,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte3,0.1161,0.157407,0.025644,-0.019057,0.023081,-0.000279,0.00235,0.002077,0.008181,0.033349,0.0032 48,0.005395,-0.014866,-0.005092,-0.0038,-0.003713,-0.00326,0.001774,0.002137,-0.008129,-0.006364,0.003586,0.000986,0.003253,0.009819
Carloforte:Carloforte4,0.129758,0.155376,0.025267,-0.016796,0.027082,-0.004462,0.00799,-0.009461,0.005318,0.02278,-0.002436,0.004796,-0.017839,-0.006193,0.004614,0.001458,0.002999,0.00228,0.0099 3,-0.000875,-0.000749,0.001978,-0.004807,-0.000723,-0.001078
Carloforte:Carloforte5,0.1161,0.146236,0.023759,-0.011628,0.033545,-0.004741,-0.00235,-0.007615,0.010431,0.029887,0.004872,0.01154,-0.008028,-0.007019,-0.001221,-0.012066,-0.005085,0.007095,0.006662,-0.002126,0.005989,0.004946,-0.001356,0.006145,0.004191
Carloforte:Carloforte6,0.114961,0.148267,0.027907,-0.011951,0.030775,-0.007809,-0.00141,-0.001615,0.017589,0.019681,0.008282,0.000899,-0.01219,-0.009496,-0.0019,0.020684,0.01356,-0.003674,0.004525,-0.00075,-0.008859,-0.004081,0.000616,-0.001687,0.000359
Carloforte:Carloforte7,0.119514,0.150298,0.024513,-0.018411,0.043085,-0.008088,0,-0.007846,0.010226,0.033349,0.000162,0.01079,-0.017988,-0.007707,-0.008143,-0.010209,0.002347,-0.006714,0.005405,-0.006128,-0.003494,-0.001607,-0.000986,-0.006627,0.000239
Carloforte:Carloforte8,0.120652,0.153345,0.009805,-0.02907,0.039084,-0.001394,0.00658,-0.001385,0.001636,0.026424,-0.005196,0.014537,-0.020367,-0.009496,-0.005565,0.010342,0.025164,-0.000507,0.003771,0.000625,-0.002246,0.000989,-0.00493,-0.002771,-0.003233
Carloforte:Carloforte9,0.124067,0.152329,0.013576,-0.017119,0.034468,-0.009482,0.005875,0.003,0.007976,0.030069,-0.005521,0.006145,-0.01219,-0.009083,0.000136,0.009812,0.014603,0.000127,0.000 754,0.008004,-0.000374,0.002968,-0.005546,0.005061,0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte10,0.108132,0.150298,0.022627 ,-0.019703,0.025235,-0.011992,0.006815,-0.003692,0.008999,0.018953,0.009256,0.013638,-0.013528,-0.003165,0.005429,-0.001989,0.007823,-0.000253,0.004777,-0.002501,-0.003993,-0.003339,0.004683,-0.003133,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte11,0.1161,0.14319,0.021873,-0.018734,0.031698,0,0.009635,0.003231,0.009408,0.0 27518,0.00341,0.009591,-0.010704,-0.001789,0.002579,0.007558,0.002738,-0.004054,0.005656,-0.011756,0.004492,0.000742,-0.001602,-0.006748,0.00455
Carloforte:Carloforte12,0.126344,0.153345,0.026776 ,-0.024871,0.037853,-0.00753,0.00752,-0.003,0.01943,0.038452,0.002273,0.009741,-0.024083,-0.005505,0.002986,-0.001193,0.010561,0.000507,-0.000628,-0.007379,0.011605,0.012242,-0.006409,-0.003976,0.001437
Carloforte:Carloforte13,0.119514,0.147252,0.022627 ,-0.018734,0.025235,-0.012829,-0.003995,0.002077,0.007772,0.030616,0.007145,0.008 243,-0.007433,-0.007294,-0.000136,-0.001061,0.010431,-0.003041,0.00729,-0.006378,0.007487,0.001978,-0.002465,0.000241,0.003353
Carloforte:Carloforte14,0.126344,0.157407,0.02489,-0.036822,0.04647,-0.019801,0.004935,0.002769,0.022702,0.034078,0.006 82,0.01079,-0.016947,0,-0.017236,-0.004773,0.013951,0.000127,0.00352,-0.001751,0.004492,0.000247,-0.004807,-0.007471,-0.009939
Carloforte:Carloforte15,0.122929,0.142174,0.023381 ,-0.022933,0.018465,0.000279,0.00235,0.006231,0.0069 54,0.035354,0.001949,0.006444,-0.014717,-0.010872,-0.000407,0.000265,0.003651,0.004307,0.005028,-0.004752,-0.002995,0.000495,-0.003697,-0.007712,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte16,0.127482,0.150298,0.012068 ,-0.029716,0.032621,-0.00502,-0.00141,-0.004154,0.013703,0.032985,0.004222,0.010341,-0.016799,-0.000826,-0.000814,-0.01127,-0.015516,0.008235,0.005531,-0.007128,-0.000873,-0.003586,-0.008134,-0.002771,-0.005628
Carloforte:Carloforte17,0.126344,0.150298,0.016216 ,-0.021641,0.030159,-0.010319,-0.003995,-0.001846,0.017589,0.02606,-0.001949,0.004646,-0.012339,-0.007019,-0.00475,-0.001061,0.018906,0.003547,0.000377,-0.009129,-0.005116,0.003215,-0.001725,-0.001084,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte18,0.117238,0.148267,0.025644 ,-0.026809,0.026774,-0.012271,0.001175,-0.000231,0.01309,0.04155,-0.000487,0.017085,-0.013082,-0.013074,-0.000271,-0.013789,-0.005867,0.010388,0.001508,-0.01138,0.006988,0.001113,-0.004067,-0.010363,0.008622
Carloforte:Carloforte19,0.118376,0.140143,0.027907 ,-0.02261,0.025235,-0.009482,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.018203,0.040821,0.004872,0.008992,-0.019326,-0.014038,0.003664,0.011535,0.017471,-0.00266,0.016341,0.006628,-0.004742,-0.008037,-0.010476,0.005422,-0.002275
Carloforte:Carloforte20,0.124067,0.14319,0.014331,-0.011628,0.031083,-0.010877,0.012221,-0.002308,0.011862,0.021686,-0.004709,0.008692,-0.002081,0,-0.002986,-0.015646,-0.017471,0.003674,0.000503,-0.017258,0.002246,0.00272,-0.002835,-0.005422,-0.001317
Carloforte:Carloforte21,0.120652,0.151314,0.019233 ,-0.014212,0.030467,-0.014223,0.003995,0.000923,0.012067,0.036083,0.000 162,0.010041,-0.00996,-0.00523,-0.013572,-0.009679,0.001173,0.004181,0.013073,-0.005253,0.001747,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.008555,0.006107
Carloforte:Carloforte22,0.12862,0.142174,0.022627,-0.019703,0.035083,-0.005299,0.011516,0,0.020248,0.030616,0.003897,0.0 08692,-0.015015,0.001239,-0.006379,-0.00769,0.005215,-0.010515,0.009553,0.002626,-0.001373,-0.000866,0.00037,-0.005061,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte23,0.120652,0.145221,0.01961,-0.010013,0.035391,-0.003347,-0.003525,-0.002308,0.010635,0.033349,-0.005521,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.00234,0.004343,0.004773,0.004563,0.007855,-0.005656,-0.01013,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.011339,0.003615,-0.005508
Carloforte:Carloforte24,0.120652,0.155376,0.015462 ,-0.02584,0.038469,-0.016733,0.000235,0.001846,0.006136,0.045923,0.003 248,0.010041,-0.015312,-0.007156,-0.005022,-0.009546,-0.012647,0.006334,0.013324,-0.004877,0.000125,0.004946,-0.006902,-0.015303,-0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte25,0.110408,0.15436,0.012822,-0.018734,0.026159,-0.011156,0.000705,0.000692,0.012271,0.0277,-0.001624,0.008992,-0.011596,-0.006331,-0.008143,-0.000663,0.002868,0.00114,0.002263,-0.011631,-0.000374,-0.002226,-0.002465,0.00482,0.005029
They cover a rather big area in PCA considering that they are a town of just 6000 inhabitants:
https://i.imgur.com/XCXox51.png
And Single Distances:
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte1 0.02076565 Swiss_Italian 0.02384261 Italian_Bergamo 0.02424425 Italian_Veneto 0.02527748 Italian_Piedmont 0.02594531 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte2 0.03044388 French_Corsica 0.03581507 Italian_Tuscany 0.03617303 Italian_Umbria 0.03803864 Swiss_Italian 0.03911758 Italian_Piedmont
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte3 0.02387248 Italian_Piedmont 0.02429385 Italian_Lombardy 0.02456843 Italian_Bergamo 0.02670098 Italian_Tuscany 0.02693378 French_Corsica
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte4 0.02291045 Italian_Piedmont 0.02526814 Italian_Bergamo 0.02565576 Italian_Tuscany 0.02580813 Italian_Veneto 0.02704315 Italian_Lombardy
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte5 0.02128402 Italian_Lombardy 0.02380439 Italian_Piedmont 0.02391717 Italian_Bergamo 0.02725499 Italian_Liguria 0.02845066 Italian_Tuscany
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte6 0.03152175 Swiss_Italian 0.03381633 Italian_Veneto 0.03514316 Italian_Piedmont 0.03524529 Italian_Tuscany 0.03571294 French_Corsica
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte7 0.02173378 French_Corsica 0.02445750 Italian_Bergamo 0.02519527 Italian_Lombardy 0.02824611 Italian_Piedmont 0.03109304 Italian_Tuscany
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte8 0.03575022 Italian_Tuscany 0.03578405 French_Corsica 0.03597875 Italian_Umbria 0.04011912 Italian_Piedmont 0.04080416 Italian_Lazio
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte9 0.02516669 Italian_Tuscany 0.02622731 French_Corsica 0.02726079 Italian_Piedmont 0.02896952 Swiss_Italian 0.02980916 Italian_Umbria
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte10 0.02627606 Italian_Tuscany 0.02745036 Italian_Piedmont 0.03023937 Italian_Umbria 0.03084395 Italian_Marche 0.03179275 Swiss_Italian
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte11 0.02511807 Italian_Piedmont 0.02576543 Swiss_Italian 0.02805001 Italian_Tuscany 0.02836635 Italian_Veneto 0.02845338 Italian_Bergamo
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte12 0.02851555 French_Corsica 0.03483941 Italian_Bergamo 0.03681448 Italian_Lombardy 0.03748679 Italian_Piedmont 0.03766467 Spanish_Menorca
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte13 0.02153072 Italian_Tuscany 0.02298427 French_Corsica 0.02300930 Italian_Piedmont 0.02355354 Swiss_Italian 0.02703136 Italian_Umbria
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte14 0.03442426 French_Corsica 0.04626123 Italian_Bergamo 0.04640215 Italian_Tuscany 0.04780849 Italian_Piedmont 0.04854738 Italian_Lombardy
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte15 0.02652787 Italian_Piedmont 0.02778134 Italian_Tuscany 0.02825599 French_Corsica 0.02879901 Swiss_Italian 0.02972037 Italian_Umbria
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte16 0.03024992 Italian_Lombardy 0.03075323 French_Corsica 0.03394508 Italian_Marche 0.03418593 Italian_Piedmont 0.03430056 Italian_Tuscany
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte17 0.02158485 French_Corsica 0.02389443 Italian_Tuscany 0.02682010 Italian_Piedmont 0.02707020 Italian_Umbria 0.02889627 Swiss_Italian
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte18 0.03190517 French_Corsica 0.03286354 Italian_Lombardy 0.03790808 Italian_Bergamo 0.03863355 Italian_Piedmont 0.04009337 Italian_Tuscany
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte19 0.03730579 French_Corsica 0.04114321 Swiss_Italian 0.04138366 Italian_Tuscany 0.04330407 Italian_Piedmont 0.04355405 Italian_Bergamo
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte20 0.03239653 Italian_Lombardy 0.03386590 Italian_Piedmont 0.03528806 Italian_Liguria 0.03830456 Italian_Bergamo 0.03905739 Italian_Marche
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte21 0.02555641 French_Corsica 0.02928222 Italian_Bergamo 0.02940646 Italian_Lombardy 0.03012987 Italian_Piedmont 0.03176286 Italian_Tuscany
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte22 0.02933245 French_Corsica 0.03050308 Italian_Piedmont 0.03118694 Italian_Bergamo 0.03176968 Italian_Lombardy 0.03215301 Swiss_Italian
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte23 0.02545043 Italian_Piedmont 0.02759564 Italian_Veneto 0.02768242 Italian_Bergamo 0.02782674 French_Corsica 0.02949303 Italian_Lombardy
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte24 0.03331241 French_Corsica 0.03688312 Italian_Lombardy 0.04171490 Italian_Bergamo 0.04187689 Italian_Tuscany 0.04218824 Italian_Piedmont
Distance to: Carloforte:Carloforte25 0.01896649 Italian_Tuscany 0.02180525 French_Corsica 0.02281220 Italian_Piedmont 0.02306529 Italian_Umbria 0.02384562 Italian_Marche
I can also post their K13, K15, Dodecad K12b etc. results if you want.
Are they mixed with mainland Italians? The Carloforte folks. The island is administered by Sardinia but they don't score it as their first pop.