Genetic portrait of Piast Dynasty

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06-03-2025, 08:26 PM
Peterski

I can check K36 results, just post a list of samples for which you want K36 data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albannach

Has it? First I have heard that. I am a member of the L1335 FTDNA group, and I've never seen anyone mention any ancient samples, In fact, there's still a lot of discourse on whether L1335 or more specifically, L1065 is Pictish or Gaelic or even Cumbric in origin.

Figlerowicz claimed that there is an ancient Pict with this subclade. But I didn't ask him about sample ID, unfortunately.
06-03-2025, 08:33 PM
cass

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

Yes.

In one paper - I don't recall which one - I made the effort to have a look for the archeological context of seqenced individuals. The assignment to a social group Vikings was pretty difficult. Because it was hard to tell whether the material culture of grave goods was something inherited or just acquired by trade. In particular the weaponry of Vikings was traded to quite everyone that wanted to have good and prestigious weapons. I recall that I could not even determine a separate group of folks with obviously Scandinavian heritage and it was all more of a cline. Unfortunately.

Indeed — this likely accounts for the numerous VK burials in Scandinavia of individuals whose genetic origins lie across the Baltic.
The presumed Rurikids from Bodzia had already been assimilated in Rus' for 100 years.
06-03-2025, 08:35 PM
cass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterski

I can check K36 results, just post a list of samples for which you want K36 data.

Ideally, all of the Piasts — especially the oldest one.
06-03-2025, 08:38 PM
Peterski

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass

Ideally, all of the Piasts — especially the oldest one.

Can you list sample IDs?
06-03-2025, 08:41 PM
rothaer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterski

Yes it is uncertain if the Przeworsk culture (associated with the Lugians) was ever Germanized or not.

Prof. Gosciwit Malinowski thinks that the Vandals were never present in Przeworsk culture territory.

So maybe Slavs actually assimilated Celts (not Germanics) in southern Poland.

There are always some fringe theories. This is why I referred to the "common perception".

There are no folks or tribes recorded in the context of the migrations of East Germanics that were Celts. The last ones were the Cotini that were mentioned in the Moravia area at the time of the Marcomannic wars (abt. 166 AD). The Bastarnae may have been Celtic or half Celtic / half Germanic or Germanic but they were before the turn of times. Undisputedly the Przeworsk culture - let it equal Vandals or not - is full of Celtic-like material culture. But that can not make visible whether they were Germanised or not. Btw. the Germanic name stem rich, like in Thiudareiks > Theoderich > Dietrich is a Celtic loan, cf. Vercingetorix etx. that first occured among East Germanics. All together points at notable assimilation of Celts among East Germanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass

In my opinion, this is visible in Silesia and Greater Poland.

How can be visible whether the Celtic-like DNA came into Slavs via at that time Celtic speaking people or Germanic speaking people?
06-03-2025, 08:53 PM
cass

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

How can be visible whether the Celtic-like DNA came into Slavs via at that time Celtic speaking people or Germanic speaking people?

With the methods currently available to us, the chances are probably small. We have no clear idea when, or even if, the Celts became Germanized in Bohemia and Silesia. To the Romans, everything north of the Alps was considered Germania.
06-03-2025, 08:56 PM
rothaer

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass

Indeed — this likely accounts for the numerous VK burials in Scandinavia of individuals whose genetic origins lie across the Baltic.
The presumed Rurikids from Bodzia had already been assimilated in Rus' for 100 years.

Yes, but be careful with this partly very confusing VK labelling! I've been annoyed by this many times.

Spoiler!

As for the Sigtuna individuals, the archaeological finds are from the 10th to 12th century.

‘We present genome-wide sequence data from 23 individuals from the 10th to 12th century Swedish town of Sigtuna.’

see https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982218308443

The Viking Age is known to have ended in 1066. If the finds were evenly distributed over the period - we don't know - about half of them would not date from the Viking Age at all.

And on the other hand, a large proportion of the finds analysed are not indigenous.

"The data revealed high genetic diversity among the early urban residents. The observed variation exceeds the genetic diversity in distinct modern-day and Iron Age groups of central and northern Europe. Strontium isotope data suggest mixed local and non-local origin of the townspeople."

"The Sigtuna individuals were widely distributed, with most falling within modern-day variation of Northern Europeans, with the majority of individuals encompassing genomic variation of modern-day individuals from Norway, the North Atlantic Islands, and England. Some samples show stronger tendencies towards modern Eastern, Western, and Central Europeans instead of Northern European populations (Figures 2A and 3)."

Thus, the following finds have an obvious similarity to modern populations:

Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001 NORWEGIAN-COSSACK-SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005 FINNISH-GERMAN_EAST-BALTIC
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002 GERMAN-AUSTRIAN-SLOVAKIAN-DUTCH-WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035 ORCADIAN-WELSH-NORWEGIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006 LATVIAN-ESTONIAN-FINNISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kal009 OUTLIER LATVIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001 ICELANDIC_ENGLISH_WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002 ORCADIAN-GERMAN_EAST-Swedish
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020 INGRIAN-RUSSIAN_SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021 ORCADIAN-CORNISH-GERMAN_EAST
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026 SWEDISH-SLOVAKIAN-COSSACK
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH

It is recognisably a long-distance trading town with merchants from all over, similar to Wisby on Gotland. This also relates to the time period. From German Wikipedia, translated:

"Visby developed into the leading trading port of the Baltic region in the middle of the 12th century.[8] A trade agreement between Visby and Novgorod can be assumed as early as the previous century.[9] Gotland travellers, i.e. merchants travelling to Visby, are first documented among the Russians and Danes: At least one Russian merchant church in Visby (St Olav[9]) and a mention in the Novgorod Chronicle speak in favour of the Russians; the presence of the Danes is documented by a letter of privilege from the Danish King Waldemar the Great (see Knudsgilde).[7] German merchants are only to be assumed in larger numbers later - after 1161.[9]"
06-03-2025, 08:57 PM
cass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterski

Can you list sample IDs?

I’m not even sure whether the samples on genarchivist.net have been labeled correctly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post8239957
06-03-2025, 09:04 PM
cass

Quote:

Originally Posted by rothaer

Yes, but be careful with this partly very confusing VK labelling! I've been annoyed by this many times.

Spoiler!

As for the Sigtuna individuals, the archaeological finds are from the 10th to 12th century.

‘We present genome-wide sequence data from 23 individuals from the 10th to 12th century Swedish town of Sigtuna.’

see https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982218308443

The Viking Age is known to have ended in 1066. If the finds were evenly distributed over the period - we don't know - about half of them would not date from the Viking Age at all.

And on the other hand, a large proportion of the finds analysed are not indigenous.

"The data revealed high genetic diversity among the early urban residents. The observed variation exceeds the genetic diversity in distinct modern-day and Iron Age groups of central and northern Europe. Strontium isotope data suggest mixed local and non-local origin of the townspeople."

"The Sigtuna individuals were widely distributed, with most falling within modern-day variation of Northern Europeans, with the majority of individuals encompassing genomic variation of modern-day individuals from Norway, the North Atlantic Islands, and England. Some samples show stronger tendencies towards modern Eastern, Western, and Central Europeans instead of Northern European populations (Figures 2A and 3)."

Thus, the following finds have an obvious similarity to modern populations:

Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001 NORWEGIAN-COSSACK-SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005 FINNISH-GERMAN_EAST-BALTIC
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002 GERMAN-AUSTRIAN-SLOVAKIAN-DUTCH-WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035 ORCADIAN-WELSH-NORWEGIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006 LATVIAN-ESTONIAN-FINNISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kal009 OUTLIER LATVIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001 ICELANDIC_ENGLISH_WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002 ORCADIAN-GERMAN_EAST-Swedish
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020 INGRIAN-RUSSIAN_SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021 ORCADIAN-CORNISH-GERMAN_EAST
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026 SWEDISH-SLOVAKIAN-COSSACK
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH

It is recognisably a long-distance trading town with merchants from all over, similar to Wisby on Gotland. This also relates to the time period. From German Wikipedia, translated:

"Visby developed into the leading trading port of the Baltic region in the middle of the 12th century.[8] A trade agreement between Visby and Novgorod can be assumed as early as the previous century.[9] Gotland travellers, i.e. merchants travelling to Visby, are first documented among the Russians and Danes: At least one Russian merchant church in Visby (St Olav[9]) and a mention in the Novgorod Chronicle speak in favour of the Russians; the presence of the Danes is documented by a letter of privilege from the Danish King Waldemar the Great (see Knudsgilde).[7] German merchants are only to be assumed in larger numbers later - after 1161.[9]"

I believe they were included in the database based on certain assumptions from study Population genomics of the Viking world.

I’m fully aware that this is a somewhat arbitrary designation."
06-03-2025, 09:05 PM
Peterski

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass

I’m not even sure whether the samples on genarchivist.net have been labeled correctly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post8239957

K36 of samples from your link:

Code:

PCA0252B,2.69,0,0,0.75,0,3.14,0.52,0,0.20,0,23.87,0,9.17,31.82,5.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,17.31,0,3.56,0,1.82,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 PCA0660,0,0.33,0,2.16,0,1.27,0,0,8.78,0,23.80,0,15.07,10.58,4.15,3.72,0,0,3.26,0,0.31,6.49,13.97,2.39,0,0.15,0,0,0,0,1.85,0.35,0,0,1.38,0 PCA0648,0,0,3.10,6.41,0,0.96,0.49,0,4.32,0,18.15,0,2.81,21.94,10.71,0,0,1.18,0.31,0,0,12.88,0,4.91,0,0,2.52,0.14,0,2.90,2.08,1.77,2.41,0,0,0.01 PCA0657,0,0,7.22,6.28,0,10.67,0,0,8.64,4.08,4.78,0,25.76,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.44,0,0,18.41,0,0,0.23,0,0,0,0,0,4.29,0,1.06,6.14 PCA0573B,0,0.15,0,0,0,14.88,0,0,1.42,0,13.75,0,0.06,14.51,16.09,2.37,0,12.04,0,0,3.68,10.17,0,7.81,0,0,1.13,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.93,0 PCA0251,0.28,0,0,0,0.05,7.98,0,0,9.17,0,22.68,0,21.82,10.42,7.11,1.89,0,0,0,0,0,6.66,0,9.78,0,0,0,0.25,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.92 PCA0573,0,0,0,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.11,0,13.99,0,3.35,20.70,14.81,11.22,0,2.29,0,6.35,0.76,10.21,0,13.76,0,0.47,0,0.34,0,0,0.72,0,0.79,0,0,0 PCA0574,0,0,0,4.74,0,18.39,0,0,0.14,0,10.37,0,20.67,1.73,1.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,18.52,0,21.11,0,0,2.10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.07 PCA0574B,0,0,0,0,0,10.70,0,0,7.93,0,16.34,0,10.34,8.35,8.54,5.44,0,4.54,0,0,0,14.33,0.18,4.45,0,0,0,0,0,2.54,1.74,0,1.63,2.92,0,0 PCA0617,0,0,0,0,0.16,10.31,0,0,0,0,19.17,0,9.88,14.01,10.30,1.58,0,9.81,0,0.79,4.60,3.63,0,12.70,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.06,0,0,0 PCA0618,0.40,0,3.66,5.26,0,7.20,0,0,6.97,0,24.45,0,2.01,9.38,0.45,11.96,0,0,0,0,0,11.26,0,13.46,0,0,0,0,1.38,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15 PCA0620,0,0,2.32,0,0,11.00,0,0,5.23,0,12.81,0,9.82,6.69,4.73,6.64,0,4.59,0,0,0,10.64,4.02,17.20,0,1.07,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.25 PCA0643,0,0,0,3.07,0.86,4.89,0,0,3.49,0,12.68,0.96,4.41,7.45,14.61,0,0,6.21,0,0,0,0,15.00,11.22,0,0,0,2.26,0,0,4.61,2.86,3.21,0,2.21,0 PCA0644,0.52,0,0,2.58,0,0.27,0,0,6.65,0,27.84,0,0.77,21.51,13.01,4.09,0,0,0,0,0,7.63,0,4.62,0,0,0,0,0,2.26,0.14,0,8.10,0,0,0 PCA0645,0.18,3.39,0,0,0,13.02,0,0,6.25,0,5.05,0,15.37,17.53,0,2.60,0,0,0,0,0,14.37,6.76,9.29,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.42,0,3.03,0,0,0.75 PCA0649,1.20,0,0,2.55,0,5.90,0,0,0.07,0,22.60,0,11.36,15.89,1.03,0,0,12.02,1.46,0,0,8.57,10.85,3.16,0,0,0.96,0,0.16,0,2.22,0,0,0,0,0 PCA0663,0,0,0,2.07,0,13.64,0.25,0,18.07,0,17.71,0,13.54,14.99,4.08,0,0,0,0,0,2.08,5.24,0,6.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15,0

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