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The Turks rule the steppe, they were the mainstream in the culture. Nothing special, the Turkic culture was the "americanization" for the steppic peoples at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
Yeah we are Pechengs we just lost our identity through assimilation’s :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Apparently you Bosniaks are as confused as Turks in Turkey regarding your roots, perfectly normalQuote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
Bosniaks get their name from the Bosna River. The "-ak" in Bosniak is just a Slavic suffix, similar to the "-ak" in Polak. The Bosna River's name is believed to be of Illyrian etymology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
It supposed to be about Arpads. It is about Balkans and Turks again. I am not surrprized.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte...012/12/lol.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
What % of Hungarians have R1a? Because I've seen many conflicting figures.
Yes. I know. That is becouse the real Turks are rare in Turkey. That is the reason why you are confusing us with Turks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Around 30% sound realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
There is no aDNA for M458, so what it can or can't be, remains to be seen with sufficient aDNA evidence. Also, some basal M458 pops up in Caucasians, specifically Circassians like Adyghe and Shapsug, Karachay & Nogai. As I understand the major Russian invasion of their region wasn't until the 1800s. Karachay and Nogai are also heavily tribal and do not mix. Any number of possibilities exist at this point with no aDNA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
Central Europe was dominated by these steppe tribes. They also fucked like rabbits. I doubt any clade is exlusively anything until there is aDNA to show. If M458 pops up in Central Europe predating the migration event.
My personal opinion is that M458 is probably just Central Corded Ware and spread from around Poland/East Germany. I just find it very odd that we are supposed to believe M458 including its soon to develop clades were somehow locked behind some prison and randomly started only spreading out in the middle ages.
It occupied many areas in East Europe that could have easily been absorbed by any number of tribes occupying these geographical positions.
Some have said there is alot of R1a diversity around Romania, postulating it as a possible original point. But, I haven't seen any papers claiming such.
Means his dna is of no use to find out more about conquering Hungarians genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
I wish I was Mongol... it's so cool.
Being Serbian, Romanian is meh...
Interesting thing is that Eupedia mentions that some of highest R1a diversity overall is in south-eastern Europe, which I think sound suprising to many people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
You think M458 is Sarmatian? Some say its Central Corded Ware and was already in central europe prior to Sarmatians(this is my view). There doesnt seem to be any aDNA for M458. I do notice some basal M458 is popping up in Adyghe, Karachay, and Nogai(who are turkic unless I am mistaken).Quote:
Originally Posted by Coinneach
On Eupedia, they described them (M458) as proto-Slavs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...html#subclades
There is no proof about Sarmatian M458, just hypothesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Very interesting. Is this the case overall? or do other areas have more R1a diversity? Isn't the rule of thumb that regions of the most diversity are usually starting points? Maybe it spread with Sarmatians or Dacians around the Morava that were part of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Without any aDNA though, I suppose its just a guessing game.
There is literally no aDNA for M458 to say what is or isn't hypothesis. And when you have basal M458 popping up in Adyghe Karachay and Nogai, I think that should not be ignored either. So much of the claims about the line is based purely on speculation due to modern distribution. If diversification of a line is anything to go by, Romania seems to have some high R1a diversification. Suggesting around the Morava as a point of spread. The steppe tribes were extremely fruitful and fucked like rabbits. I highly doubt they barely left a mark paternally. Now we have aDNA for Z280, so we can make some assumptions. Until aDNA is available for M458, then all talk is just speculation(some educated some not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
I do notice too alot of R1a in South Slavs is mostly Z280. M458 seems more East Balkan, but with regards to the West Balkans its higher in Croats no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
I2 was so far long in Europe that I2 definitely participated in Indo European movements. Whether they originally descended from Mesolithic groups or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
Yes, might be just speculation. It doesn't make too much sense to me, I would expect more diversity in north-east of Europe and central Asia /Siberia. But south-east of Romania is already steppe zone, so who know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Eupedia isn't academic site anyway.
Actually we are pred. Z280 (so called Carpathian-Dalmatian subclade) , there was one erraneous study with small smaple size that showed more M458, but several others refuted it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
:thumb001:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Here are 488 random sample. This is an inappropriate statistics of course, because the sampling was not systematic from an area and totally subjective in space and time. Hovewer, 488 is much more than nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
The results: 118 persons, 24.1% R1a
- 4 persons, 0,8% R1a Z93
- 55 persons, 11,2% R1a Z280
So, almost half of the Hungarian R1a is potentially steppe related.
Other interesting results:
- 18 persons, 3,6% R1b M269 (proto-Aryan steppe R1b)
- 13 persons, 2,6% G2a (Caucasian subgrups)
- 10 persons, 2% Q
- 8 persons, 1,6% N (the non Balto-Slavic subgrups)
- 1 persons, 0,2% C
So at least 22% of the Y-DNA lineages are potentially conqueror Magyar origin types.
Good point. If the diversification is strongest in Romania for M458/Z280, then I would imagine some splintered Dacian clans, and or possibly Sarmatian groups like Roxolani could be responsible for the diversification around this area. As I understand, Dacians were around the Southern Baltics no? If so, Z280 is definitely possible, and maybe even M458.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
People make it seem like Z280/M458 were walled up like the white walkers of game of thrones, and just started migrating in all directions in the middle ages. That literally makes no sense. If M458 for instance was already in Central Europe during Lusatians, then it definitely participated in both Slavic, and East Germanic tribes.
Even the trajectory of Bastarnae for instance, passed through Z280/M458 hotspots. So it escapes logic to assume some of it was not spreading with them. They were especially known to intermix with others.
Also What if Volga Bulgars spread M458? some branches of M458 typically seem more restricted to Bulgaria/Romania. Like YP263 under L1029 which is typically East Balkan(according to Michal).
I turned out to be L1029* basal and negative downstream. All my matches are 2000 plus years ago. I was suspected to possibly form my own cluster upstream YP263 but downstream L1029*. However, the clade is too unstable. I plan to test my father next to form and define the cluster between us. But it seems we are either basal L1029 or ancestral to YP263.
My close Y37 match won;t test further. He is Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia. So my fathers test should define a new subclade under L1029*. My closest STR match is the Beijing sample from China lolol. Only one match though. and under 100 SNP matches.
On 23andme, most my M417 paternal matches are Greek, Romanian, Albanian, and Bulgarian, and a couple Croatians. There is no telling what subclade they belong. I imagine being M417 and a paternal autsomal match is a hint that they could be M458.
Oh, I know M458 is less than Z280, but isn't Croatia the highest in M458 after East Balkans?
Dacians were still active in early AD around Romania, so the diversification may play a role. Especially with the oldest M417 popping up around Ukraine. Perhaps diversification happened around Romania. The Morava as I have heard.
Are there any scientifically published periodicals attesting to this? The lack of diversity in NE is odd, true. Especially all the aDNA in the area came up Z280 mostly. There is still no aDNA for M458. Unless I am missing something. Google search turns up nothing.
:picard2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreigner
Why are you repeating this post after post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
It has no sense, as many will not understand
what you mean, or take it for auDNA (if you
did mot mean that, who knows).
If you bother reading you would see why. People keep saying as if its already been proven, where M458 came from. No aDNA has been discovered. Which means until it is, all else is speculation. Understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
Every hg, which was under way did it, so, there is no point in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
You mean ancient DNA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Yea. Ancient DNA. I can't find any papers for M458. So, I assume there are no ancient DNA samples yet. I heard alot of Z280 was recently discovered in the Baltics. But no M458 among them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
Then, yes, you are right. No claim has any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
It could be corded, it could be sarmatian, it could be both, or even none.
I think M458 in Karachay-Balkars is result of Rethelites-settling there. Don't forget that West Slavic tribes (such as Vyatichi) participated in East Slavic creation of Russia. They were mostly probably M458.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
Only Russias mass invasion occurred between 17-1800s, and Karachay-Balkars, Nogais, do not mix(very tribal). Their M458 is also alot different than that found in Russians. Their M458 is older/much more basal. And I think the Nogai speak turkic. It is also within Adyghe and Shapsug tribes within Circassians. The line had to have been absorbed much earlier than recently in their case. It is still most probably Balto-Slavic. But, we won't know until aDNA pops up. What if the Volga Bulgars and Avars spread some branched in the Balkans? Maybe it was Sarmatian and participated in the Slavic ethnogenesis. With L1029 YP515 and L260 descending from it and moving with Slavs. the diversification around Romania is a telling key. We just won't know until we have ancient samples. without it, no ones argument has any legs. Only educated speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
But Rethelites pre-Scythian, Sarmatian whatever. It is doubtfullQuote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
if Russians would brought there exactly the basal clades, and
there is no known info about resent founder effect.
On the other hand IEs were there almost since ever, there was
a strong Alanian Kingdom, and Kimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians,
even some paraHindus did crossing, settling aso there to make the
possibilities more plenty. Also Goths could influenced that area and
it wouldnt be strage if they would spread it across Europe, no matter
they had it originally or did absorb underway.
We just do not know, and all what we can do is to speculate, which
can - and will obviously do - turn into rave, when one day, ancient
samples will emerged. BUT even then it can not to be clear, as the
ancient DNA do not has written what language spoke, and since the
IE commonwealth did broke, there can be no way to recreate all
wanderings and particular changing of subtribality by this clade and
it's subclades during so many millennias.
Only two clades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Rest I deeply doubt, as are spreaded across Europe.
Only types close to me alone, are too much spreded as for Slavic origin.
Rather it came with first IEs or with Sarmatians.
With Slavs could too, but it is hard to imagine, that single wanderings
or slave trade brought basal clades, but did not brought the main ones.
Balts don't have it very common, i think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
Lunatic kurultáj (aka. Cuman-days) in Kunság (Cumania) minority area? How pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
"words for culture and lifestyle, like some foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives" these are some loanwords, but there were more loanwords ( foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives) from German and Latin languages before the language reforms. It doesn't make us German nor Latino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
Only the evil linguists and historians don't know about your fantasy. How sad.... And they globally conspired with their scholars from all around the world. Yes I know that such a conspiracy theories and fantasies exist among less educated proletarian people i Cumania like you and your ancestors. Do you really believe that all scholars conspired against your turanian tales?
By this same "logic", as TurulKarom, Hungarians are Buddhists from China!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stears
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pzvC7tKMHu.../bhuddist.jpeg
(Budhist center in Zalaszántó)