Davidski said that today should be official publication of Furtwängler et al. 2020 study!
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Davidski said that today should be official publication of Furtwängler et al. 2020 study!
Place your bets, I think it's safe to say Celts should be somewhere between 35% and 45% Steppe and between 15% and 20% WHG, I'd be surprised it it was different.
The paper has been released.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15560-x
Meh only 5 samples younger than 2000 BCE and only 1 is from the iron age I believe, all 5 samples are between 34-47% Steppe and the iron age one is kinda East-European in G25(10% Eastern HG) and has R1a.
https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf
Edit:Actually there is another iron age sample from 200-0 BCE. It's SX18. It's about 30% Steppe and 15% WHG.
Who thought we needed more bronze age samples from central Europe, get working on the iron age people lol
so what was the carbon dating of the samples in the op?Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
MX188 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2495-2399BC M423 I2a1a2Quote:
Originally Posted by Raizen
MX190 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2860-2460BC M423 I2a1a2
MX192 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2571-2513BC M423 I2a1a2
MX195 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2470-2050BC M423 I2a1a2
swiss-italians are the least native swiss people as expected.Quote:
We compared present-day Swiss people to regional Final Neolithic populations (Spreitenbach, Bad Zurzach, Wartau) to test whether there are additional ancestry components in present-day Swiss people. For that analysis, we made use of information available in the present-day dataset (POPRES) about the self-reported language group and split the individuals into three linguistic regions, as they were shown to be distinguishable genetically in previous studies27: German-speaking, French-speaking, and Italian-speaking Switzerland. To test for continuity between the ancient and present-day population we used the method qpWave from the ADMIXTOOLS package19 and found that a simple continuity can be rejected (p = 0.0003) for all three linguistic regions separately and the entire present-day Swiss population combined, consistent also with the PCA (Fig. 1c).
To assess whether ancient Swiss individuals from the Final Neolithic are symmetrically related to different linguistic present-day groups, or share an excess of alleles with any of them, we calculated D-statistics of the form D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–Italian), D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–German, Swiss–Italian), and D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–German) where “Test” are the different Neolithic groups. The first two D-statistics were, with few exceptions, all negative with a |Z| ≥ 1.099 (maximum values to be found in D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–Italian) for Singen with −3.431 and Bad Zurzach −3.068) indicating the least genetic affinity of the Final Neolithic and Early Bronze Age individuals of this study to the Italian-speaking group in our present-day Swiss dataset. For D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–German) some variation between the sites can be found (Fig. 5) with the older sites sharing more alleles with the French-speaking group, and the younger sites being more similar with the German-speaking group.
ok, makes more sense. i think it is now safe to assume central european celts were quite southern european then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
Yep, not surprising. Can't blame Token of course, Davidski or whoever uploaded the samples rushed to judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
I believe these guys are older than any other samples with a Bell Beaker genetic profile(whilist the typical CWC profile is already found in Ukraine before 4000 BC), and of course they're archaeologically CWC, which does confirm BBs were just another group of CWC like Davidski has been theorizing, not a different southern movement through Hungary from contemporary with CWC Yamnaya. Aesch25 from 2864-2501 is also the oldest R1b-L51, unsure of his autosomal profile. Unsurprisingly the neolithic farmers all G2a/I2, not a J/E to be found in sight.
I warned you on the 1st page of this thread that they are probably not Iron Age.
Autosomally Corded Ware:Quote:
Aesch25 from 2864-2501 is also the oldest R1b-L51, unsure of his autosomal profile.
Some other samples:Code:Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.04214376 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04385189 French_Paris
0.04495073 Belgian
Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne
Distance to: Constance:MX288
0.02803595 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03083126 French_Brittany
0.03226829 Welsh
Distance to: Constance:MX286
0.03509933 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03631098 French_Occitanie
0.03674378 French_Paris
Distance to: Constance:MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie
Distance to: Constance:MX279
0.03559744 French_Brittany
0.03697281 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03817387 Welsh
Distance to: Constance:MX275
0.04154491 French_Occitanie
0.04172188 French_Paris
0.04186804 Belgian
Distance to: Constance:MX257
0.03452833 French_Nord
0.03485311 Afrikaner
0.03489344 Belgian
Distance to: Constance:MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria
Distance to: Constance:MX252
0.02867450 French_Brittany
0.02899975 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02930563 French_Nord
Scaled:
Unscaled:Code:,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.024312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.046763,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.053174,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155
Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.001948,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269
Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.041344,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359
Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.040052,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754
Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.052649,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097
Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685,0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239
Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.040698,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.015672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838
St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Some more (scaled & unscaled):Code:,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.0093,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.0101,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.0156,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018
Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012,0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044
Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.0136,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011
Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003
Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023
Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081
Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012
Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136,0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002
Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159,0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007
St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179,0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004
Code:,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Aesch23,0.0108,0.0178,0.0126,-0.012,0.0255,-0.0095,-0.0021,-0.0005,0.0306,0.0502,0.0002,0.0107,-0.022,-0.0096,-0.0096,-0.0049,-0.0018,0.0019,-0.0035,-0.0029,0.0064,0.0031,-0.0093,-0.0301,-0.0023
MX212,0.0111,0.0167,0.0157,-0.0093,0.0302,-0.0097,-0.0007,0.0001,0.0361,0.0426,-0.0012,0.0074,-0.0196,-0.014,-0.0113,0.0131,0.0186,0.0033,0.0008,-0.007,0.013,0.0034,-0.0099,-0.0319,-0.0045
MX188,0.0103,0.0128,0.0159,0.0178,0.0069,0.0071,-0.0007,0,-0.0032,-0.0046,0.0003,0.0005,-0.0014,-0.0154,0.0097,0.0167,0.0038,0.002,-0.0019,0.0084,0.0059,0.0029,-0.0027,0.001,-0.0063
MX190,0.0111,0.0133,0.0158,0.0192,0.0082,0.0109,0.0031,0.0038,-0.0043,-0.0015,-0.0058,0,-0.0096,-0.0111,0.0102,0.0061,0.0027,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0061,0.0031,0.008,0.0073,-0.0081,-0.0017
MX192,0.0109,0.0119,0.0176,0.0193,0.0082,0.0083,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0034,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.0024,-0.0053,-0.0059,0.0145,0.0159,0.0092,0.0025,0,0.0019,0.0067,0.0013,-0.0032,0.0017,0.0022
MX195,0.0108,0.0119,0.0172,0.0204,0.0071,0.0094,-0.0004,0.0011,-0.0015,-0.0045,0,0.0015,-0.0071,-0.0065,0.0152,0.0183,0.0069,-0.0041,-0.0046,0.0067,-0.0021,0.003,0.0008,0.0025,0.0011
Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Aesch23_scaled,0.122929,0.180764,0.047517,-0.03876,0.078476,-0.026495,-0.004935,-0.001154,0.062584,0.091483,0.000325,0.016036,-0.032705,-0.013212,-0.013029,-0.006497,-0.002347,0.002407,-0.004399,-0.003627,0.007986,0.003833,-0.011462,-0.03627,-0.002754
MX212_scaled,0.126344,0.169593,0.059208,-0.030039,0.09294,-0.027052,-0.001645,0.000231,0.073833,0.077633,-0.001949,0.01109,-0.029137,-0.019267,-0.015336,0.017369,0.024251,0.004181,0.001006,-0.008754,0.016221,0.004204,-0.012202,-0.038439,-0.005389
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0.021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0.025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0.025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.002376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0.02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Do you have SX18?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
See, thing is, Celts aren't going to be like those northern French ones either. They're too northern, would still need way too much Roman to get modern Swiss from N. French+Scandinavian+Roman. Even if we say La Tene/Hallstatt period Celts still formed a cline from N. Iberians to N. French by 500 BC+, that still means the average is around SW/South/Central French, which is what I've been saying after I made that thread about the Lech samples(originally was saying Basque-like of course, which is still close enough regardless).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
The dates say it all, SX20(closest to Spanish_Barcelona): 1693-1609 BC is the youngest sample on there(excluding MX265, the eastern one), most the closest to Calais_French ones are older than 2000 BC(not that they didn't exist later, 1 out of 6 middle 1000s BC Lech_MBA clustered around N. French/Belgium rather than Iberians/SW French like the rest and one 1800 BC one from this paper is Britanny like). If we take SharpFork's word for it on SX18, the only other Iron Age sample in this paper(200 BC+) and go by the steppe/farmer/WHG ratio it has, fits right with what northern Iberians have, around 30% steppe, 15% WHG(although I haven't been able to find anything about this sample in supp data), and the other one closest to Croats.
I was right all along. :)
R1a sample:
https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf - Supplementary Table 3
maxageBP minageBP ageBP
763 431 597
This age is in BP (before present) or in BC ???
Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Spoiler!
Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435
It seems most dates are in BP (before present), not in BC. See Supplementary Table 3.
=========
Wait for SX18.
There's already samples with identical autosomal to those profiles 2000 BC+, Rhaetians only entered Switzerland 500 BC supposedly. It could be a Rhaetian, but Celts/Rhaetians and other Italic tribes likely would've been the exact same people autosomally, by the time of the Hallstatt/La Tene anyway, while proto-Celt/Urnfield were likely more northern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
I don't get it, one table has dates in BP and another one in BC. Is MX265 (R1a sample) Iron Age or Medieval?
dp
Main supp data page 7 says BC(I also see where it says BP later):Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf
Looks like they made a mistake, I'm willing to guess BC is the accurate one, it has to be otherwise pure neolithic farmers survived up to 1500 BC in Switzerland, lol.
Could be a merchant who came from Biskupin. Or maybe from somewhere around Hungary.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
No it's always BC, otherwise it doesn't make sense, they explitclty mention they have 1 early Iron Age sample and 1 Late iron age and Roman one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Code:Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 3.0897% / 0.03089746
29.0 St_Gallen
28.0 Aesch23_scaled
20.6 Constance
15.2 Aesch25
7.2 MX265_scaled
Actually not a bad fit considering how old these are.Code:Distance to: Viriato_scaled
0.04799128 St_Gallen:SX20
0.06301488 Constance:MX257
0.06347499 Constance:MX265
0.06347499 MX265_scaled
0.06634102 Constance:MX254_2
0.06669808 Constance:MX283
0.06784758 Constance:MX252
0.06835502 Constance:MX275
0.06875447 Constance:MX286
0.07497707 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.07683257 Constance:MX288
0.08808025 Constance:MX279
0.09392052 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64
0.10264727 MX190_scaled
0.10312953 MX188_scaled
0.10791903 MX192_scaled
0.11179348 MX195_scaled
0.11460139 Aesch23_scaled
0.11539719 Alsace:SX32
0.12524452 MX212_scaled
0.14577873 Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25
0.14577873 Aesch25_scaled
0.16742646 Aesch23
0.17179223 MX212
0.17196938 MX265
you see annency(annecy) in france and the "allobroger",the allobroges indeed is a gaulish tribe at the IV century BCQuote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
i'am from a bit up north(west from the lake) in burgandy,some major tribes like the burgonds or the vandals came from northen and goes southern by this side,indeed i advance a theory than the proto-germanic tribes from denmark goes southern east by this way until northern italian tyrol ,given later the proto-celtic tribes between -1500 to -400 BC and way before the roman empire
i had post something related about a crazy bitch afro-portuguese leftie harpie claiming than europe is not white ,forget the crazy bitch but i had demonstrated by A+B the presence of the "modern white man" since a while in this area
Ötzi 3350-3100 B.C. 2020+3350= -5370 BC(4 546 ± 15 years BP),found near the austrian border (92 m.) in northern italy ,in bolzano
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...useum_Wien.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...truktion_1.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi but you couldn't considered Ötzi connected to the proto germanics/celts it's way to much previous and too far
i resume my "theory":
-the proto-germanic tribes core from denmark goes and gave the proto-celtic tribes later on an north east to south west axis from denmark to tyrol area
and followed way later by the Hallstatt/La Tene iron age (-1200/-400 approx.)
sorry if i take some liberties and some shortcuts but it's more a way of logic
the proto-germanic culture and tribes gave the proto-celtic culture and tribes ,who themsleves became the more or less united "modern" post-proto germano-celts tribes , gaving the embryos of the first forms of organized societies and states, whom,later, directly strongly influenced the proto-viking tribes,like this the loop is looped
to my eyes but i can be wrong you can't splitted the proto-germanic tribes of the proto-celtic tribes,I like to speak of the proto and of the germano-celts
look where is located the proto-germanic core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s_ca._AD_1.png
the danish bronze age (-1800/-500 BC) core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Bronze_Age.png
burgonds,lombards,goths and the herulis are from scandinavia called scandza the matrix of the people at this era
(L'influence scandinave en Poméranie et dans le nord de la Pologne à partir de -1300 paraît même avoir été si forte que ces deux régions sont incluses dans la culture de l'âge du bronze danois )
the scandinavian influence in Pomerania in the northen Poland seems to be so strong starting by -1300 than these two areas are included in the danish bronze age culture
and by the same way it came to confirm what i was thinking than northern poland and germany is like the baltic states genetically influenced by the scandinavians,if you are pomeranians tell me if i'am wrong?
seen from our recent modern era with the actual germany and poland states
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._pomerania.png
end of the danish bronze age -750 BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0BC-1AD%29.png
and the halstatt/la téne core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._in_Europe.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Celts.svg.png
Remarkably, we identified several female individuals without any detectable steppe-related ancestry up to 1000 years after this ancestry arrives in the region, with the most recent woman without such ancestry dating to 2213–2031 calBCE. This suggests a high level of genetic structure in this region at the beginning of the Bronze Age with potential parallel societies living in close proximity to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
Of course BP is the mistake and should be BC. Otherwise oldest samples would be much younger than Middle Neolithic, which is age of oldest samples in suplemental.
Look at first pages of it. I compared it with first table. https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/ckdrIcI.png
https://i.imgur.com/fhITRjL.png
Possible Rhaetian SX18:Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
One more sample MX191:Code:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.003897,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
SX18,0.0111,0.015,0.0128,-0.002,0.0167,-0.0026,0.002,-0.0003,0.008,0.0194,0.0016,0.011,-0.0108,-0.0044,0.0012,0.0005,0.0047,0.0021,0.0031,-0.0053,0.0051,0.005,-0.0095,-0.0051,0.0008
Code:MX191_scaled,0.121791,0.116786,0.058831,0.072352,0.02462,0.029284,0.00282,0.003923,0.001636,-0.01877,-0.005846,-0.001499,-0.006244,-0.019405,0.019951,0.015646,-0.001695,0.007348,0.001508,0.005378,0.001622,0.009027,0.001849,0.009158,-0.007185
MX191,0.0107,0.0115,0.0156,0.0224,0.008,0.0105,0.0012,0.0017,0.0008,-0.0103,-0.0036,-0.001,-0.0042,-0.0141,0.0147,0.0118,-0.0013,0.0058,0.0012,0.0043,0.0013,0.0073,0.0015,0.0076,-0.006
Is this that unlikely?Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
https://i.imgur.com/SdRmuq4.png
Even if you the historical samples with lower steppe there is a strong preference for Italic. You can test that yourself.
For Swiss Italians you got a rather bad fit though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
BTW, Swiss Romansh is what I would like to see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton...sons#Languages
The Swiss Italian sample is weird in of itself, very southern, more than some other Northern Italian ones. Regardless even using all Celtic samples from the Iron age, we get low Celtic values overall, in this one I excluded the woman from the late iron age but little changes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
https://i.imgur.com/NFeWj4g.png
Code:Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203,0.126344,0.14319,0.051288,0.021641,0.037238,-0.005299,0.00094,0.004846,0.024747,0.026971,-0.003897,0.008992,-0.025272,-0.026011,0.008822,0.004906,0.012126,-0.003547,0.003268,0.003627,0.007487,0.000618,-0.001972,0.004458,-0.00467
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209,0.12862,0.145221,0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206,0.125205,0.127957,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.006815,0.006231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214,0.130897,0.138112,0.058454,0.026809,0.046162,0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.016771,0.030069,-0.001624,0.009741,-0.022299,-0.014588,0.010586,0.00769,0.002868,0.002787,0.003645,0.001376,0.011105,0.006801,-0.00986,-0.012893,0.005628
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Italic:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.01079,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Germanic:SWE_IA:RISE174,0.122929,0.123895,0.067127,0.058463,0.041238,0.02008,0.005875,0.007615,0.002863,-0.009659,0.003735,0.001948,-0.006987,0.003853,0.020358,-0.006762,-0.015385,0.006461,0.009427,0.00025,0.00025,0.002844,0.002465,0.011447,0.000359
Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Western Austrian/Tyrol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
"sample": "Test1:Austrian_-_Austria10",
"fit": 2.3049,
"SX18_scaled": 43.33,
"DEU_MA_ACD": 27.5,
"DEU_MA": 24.17,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 5,
Few Alpine Lombards (for fun):
"sample": "Test1:Italian_Bergamo_-_HGDP01151",
"fit": 3.1616,
"SX18_scaled": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 23.33,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,
"sample": "Test2:Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_-_ALP259",
"fit": 1.7757,
"SX18_scaled": 55.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 30,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,
ITA_Collegno_MA is kind of a mixed bag far from being pure Langobardic or Germanic, that's why R1b-U106 can be less than 10% in Northern Italy even though Migration Period impact is almost certainly much higher:
Quote:
It is certain that Alboin then brought with him to Italy many men from various peoples which either other kings or he himself had taken.
Whence, even until to-day, we call this villages in which they dwell Gepidian, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican or by other names of this kind.
Quote:
Therefore, when king Alboin with his whole army and a multitude of people of all kinds had come to the limits of Italy [...]"
Quote:
For it is certain that these Saxons had come to Italy with their wives and children that they might dwell in it, yet as far as can be understood they were unwilling to be subject to the commands of the Langobards.
But it was not permitted to them by the Langobards to live according to their own laws, and therefore they determined to go back to their own country.
^^^ Wouldn't throwing some "Cisalpine Gauls" into the model improve the fit for Bergamo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
BTW, what exactly is the genetic difference between Emilia and Romagna?
Are there any GEDmatch kits of 100% Emilia people vs. 100% Romagna people available?
I guess so, not that I expect anything too much departing from SX18. The model was not serious anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Inbox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
dp
There isn't a preference for Italic, though. None of the models you posted even remotely compare the two. Why do you think I've been saying this? I've been trying to figure this out for awhile now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Weird model, why are you using all the Empuires samples? Only one of them is a potential Gaul(I8206, probably from the NW/Central-West of France/Brittany area), the rest are local Iberians, and you didn't use any of said low steppe Swiss/Bavarian samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
You really think Swiss French can be 46% Italic? Your Italic is inflated because you didn't include a proxy for southern shifted Imperial Romans(which probably made up the majority of migrants to the non-Italian parts of the empire, save for maybe in S. France when settlement by Italics was high during the initial conquest of Gaul during the Republic), I checked which Italic sample was scoring so high and it was specifically giving inflated Etruscan(anyone outside of Italy scoring more Etruscan than Italic speaker makes literally 0 sense) because they're the most southern shifted of Iron Age Italians, as a result the model gave more to compensate, whilist if having the needed southern admixture in the model will use less of it because it doesn't have to take something intermediary and overcompensate(for comparison, Etruscans clustered with Bergamo Italians, Imperial Roman average is around Greek islanders if not even more southern). Germanic in the French pops is also way too high because of using random Iberians as proxies for Celts.
Here's a better model with more realistic amounts of Roman admixture in Swiss, and using all Italian IA samples, as well as every single low steppe/N. Iberia/S. France clustering sample from Switzerland and Bavaria, the southern Hallstatt Bohemia sample, along with one mercenary outlier from the Tollense battlefield from NE Germany from around 1200 BC(was this guy a "Rhaetian" too? :laugh:), who was thought to be from southern Germany based on bone isotopes(I'd also include the Basque clustering outlier but he isn't on G25), and Empuires I8206 to not Germanic overcompensate in the French(labeled as "NorthCelt"):
model:
Spoiler!
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8211% / 0.00821085
36.6 DEU_MA
13.6 St_Gallen
11.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
9.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
9.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.4 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
6.0 ITA_Etruscan
5.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
2.8 DEU_Lech_MBA
Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0261% / 0.01026134
30.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
20.8 St_Gallen
17.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
12.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
7.4 DEU_MA
6.6 ITA_Etruscan
3.2 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
1.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.4 DEU_Lech_MBA
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8212% / 0.00821158
36.2 Germanic
32.6 Celtic
11.4 NorthCelt
10.6 Italic
9.2 ImperialRoman
Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0261% / 0.01026134
54.4 Celtic
17.8 NorthCelt
12.2 ImperialRoman
8.2 Italic
7.4 Germanic
Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.8140% / 0.00814021
39.0 Germanic
28.2 Celtic
21.4 NorthCelt
7.8 ImperialRoman
3.6 Italic
Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.8360% / 0.00836011
52.2 Germanic
30.8 Celtic
9.4 ImperialRoman
7.6 Italic
Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 0.4788% / 0.00478808
45.0 Celtic
25.6 Italic
16.8 Germanic
6.6 NorthCelt
6.0 ImperialRoman
Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 1.3112% / 0.01311153
48.8 Germanic
21.0 NorthCelt
18.4 Celtic
11.8 Italic
(Brittany needs something British Isles of course, extremely inflated Germanic and far worse fit than the rest)
Target: French_Corsica
Distance: 0.4605% / 0.00460509
44.0 Italic
32.0 ImperialRoman
22.4 Celtic
1.6 NorthCelt
Target: French_Nord
Distance: 0.8647% / 0.00864742
41.2 Germanic
32.0 Celtic
10.0 Italic
9.6 NorthCelt
7.2 ImperialRoman
Target: French_Occitanie
Distance: 0.4788% / 0.00478839
45.0 Celtic
26.2 Italic
12.2 Germanic
11.6 NorthCelt
5.0 ImperialRoman
Target: German
Distance: 1.3430% / 0.01343032
72.6 Germanic
25.4 Celtic
2.0 ImperialRoman
(needs Slavic of course, should get around 15% nearly all of it coming out of the 72% Germanic)
Target: Italian_Bergamo
Distance: 0.8938% / 0.00893786
43.0 Italic
23.6 ImperialRoman
20.0 Celtic
11.2 Germanic
2.2 NorthCelt
Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 0.6388% / 0.00638768
39.4 ImperialRoman
27.4 Italic
15.4 Germanic
13.6 Celtic
4.2 NorthCelt
Lone models of Swiss with either/or Italic or southern shifted Alpine samples:
Italic only:
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.9593% / 0.00959330
50.4 Germanic
31.4 Italic
11.0 NorthCelt
7.2 ImperialRoman
Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.2820% / 0.01282033
45.6 Italic
26.6 Germanic
16.8 NorthCelt
11.0 ImperialRoman
Southern shifted Alpine only:
Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8504% / 0.00850357
42.2 Celtic
30.6 Germanic
16.0 NorthCelt
11.2 ImperialRoman
Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0399% / 0.01039939
61.2 Celtic
21.4 NorthCelt
14.2 ImperialRoman
3.2 Germanic
Yep, it's pretty clear to me now how Hallstatt/La Tene samples are going to wind up looking like.
I'm sticking with the Celts being Northern French / Central Western European-like. It makes the most sense to me for a variety of reasons.
We already know they weren't though, because of all the Iberian-S French-like samples, who get higher in number the later the samples are. The Northern French are the upper tip of the genetic cline of the samples, the average is going to be a lot more south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Northern French are, by all intents and purposes, Northern Europeans, you're basically arguing for a Bell Beaker replacement of Neolithic farmers in a latitude as low as Switzerland more comparable to the replacement of British Isles neolithic farmers than neighbouring Italy, or nearby Hungary. Not to mention the Alpine region was one of the most populated and most culturally developed neolithic area outside of southern Europe. In a place like Scandinavia, Netherlands, England, N. Germany, where populations were tiny, near full population replacements seem plausible, in central Europe around the Alps? I guess it's possible, given the Alps are the biggest genetic border in Europe today, but it just seems highly unlikely.
Target: Constance:MX279
Distance: 2.9491% / 0.02949132
77.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
19.4 FRA_MN
3.2 AUT_LBK_N
(one of the N. French-like Swiss BA samples)
Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 1.7005% / 0.01700488
77.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.4 AUT_LBK_N
11.0 FRA_MN
Target: England_MBA
Distance: 1.0496% / 0.01049620
88.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.6 FRA_MN
Target: English
Distance: 2.1195% / 0.02119519
81.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
10.4 AUT_LBK_N
8.4 FRA_MN
----------------------------------
Areas closer to Switzerland(Hungary, Italy) and equally far as England(Iberia):
Target: HUN_BA
Distance: 2.0107% / 0.02010734
61.4 AUT_LBK_N
36.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
1.8 LUX_Loschbour
Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
Distance: 3.5805% / 0.03580536
40.0 AUT_LBK_N
39.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
20.2 FRA_MN
Target: Iberia_North_BA
Distance: 1.4066% / 0.01406614
55.6 FRA_MN
37.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
5.2 AUT_LBK_N
2.2 LUX_Loschbour
-------------------------------
This seems more likely as what happened in Switzerland, something intermediary:
Target: French_Occitanie
Distance: 1.1324% / 0.01132432
63.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
23.8 AUT_LBK_N
12.8 FRA_MN
Can I see it for proto-Celts? Sure, they were probably even more northern than N. French but by the time of Hallstatt, La Tene, the Roman Republic, to me there's no way a population as north shifted as N. French lived in Switzerland.
How is there no preference for Italic, even using your "Basque" like samples, French people and Swiss tend to score a lot of Italic, like I said including or excluding certain samples doesn't change the trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
You are making contradictory steps, if Empuries couldn't possibly have been Celtic then why do you think early Celts were southern French or NW-Iberian like? All 3 non-British-like Empuries samples are either on the same level as the Western Czech Bylany sample or are northern than the late Iron age swiss woman. Also Iberia_East_IA and Iberia_North_IA all had noticeable and consistently lower Steppe than Empuries1, I think it's fair to assume all 3 samples are Celt. Or do you think that Southern French were northern and ended becoming more Southern as the Basque-like Celts mixed with them? I don't follow.Quote:
Weird model, why are you using all the Empuires samples? Only one of them is a potential Gaul(I8206, probably from the NW/Central-West of France/Brittany area), the rest are local Iberians, and you didn't use any of said low steppe Swiss/Bavarian samples.
I didn't use the Lech MBA samples because they are simply too early, I believe the missing centuries would blurry the model.
Honestly I'm not sure but I would say no, but at the same time I'm not sure why many people think the Roman conquests and rule would have had a minor impact when for all accounts they didn't(in Italy we have the evidence, and we could argue that indirectly Greece and Iberia too)Quote:
You really think Swiss French can be 46% Italic?
Regardless like I said the model favours Italic over Celtic, it's pretty evident in Northern Italy, even in your example Central French populations get 30+% Italic+Imperial.
Southern shifted Romans appeared because Italy became a hub of slaves and urban migrants, I'm not sure why the Roman conquest up to the early imperial age would have spread the genes of slaves and immigrants when Roman colonies were of Italic military origin.Quote:
Your Italic is inflated because you didn't include a proxy for southern shifted Imperial Romans(which probably made up the majority of migrants to the non-Italian parts of the empire, save for maybe in S. France when settlement by Italics was high during the initial conquest of Gaul during the Republic), I checked which Italic sample was scoring so high and it was specifically giving inflated Etruscan(anyone outside of Italy scoring more Etruscan than Italic speaker makes literally 0 sense) because they're the most southern shifted of Iron Age Italians, as a result the model gave more to compensate, whilist if having the needed southern admixture in the model will use less of it because it doesn't have to take something intermediary and overcompensate(for comparison, Etruscans clustered with Bergamo Italians, Imperial Roman average is around Greek islanders if not even more southern). Germanic in the French pops is also way too high because of using random Iberians as proxies for Celts.
Do we see markers of Near Eastern or North African components north of Provence to warrant using urban imperial samples outside Northern Italy? I mean the Imperial Roman samples comes up with 25% ancient near eastern components but we don't see any of that north of Provence.
I thought all(?) samples from Tollense were low quality.Quote:
Here's a better model with more realistic amounts of Roman admixture in Swiss, and using all Italian IA samples, as well as every single low steppe/N. Iberia/S. France clustering sample from Switzerland and Bavaria, the southern Hallstatt Bohemia sample, along with one mercenary outlier from the Tollense battlefield from NE Germany from around 1200 BC(was this guy a "Rhaetian" too? :laugh:), who was thought to be from southern Germany based on bone isotopes(I'd also include the Basque clustering outlier but he isn't on G25), and Empuires I8206 to not Germanic overcompensate in the French(labeled as "NorthCelt"):
Ultimately I still see too many faults in all models we made. I still have hard time accepting that the bulk of the Celtic population was 30-35% when 2 Italic samples such as proto-Villanovan and Prenestini_tribe are at like 33-35% Steppe level, also the levels of Italic and Germanic ancestry in French samples baffles me, I believe this as absurd as any result you would have gotten using a more northern proxy for Celts.
Northern France ends up appearing very Germanic and it seems to me that the "Northern Celt" component is not doing its job properly, if France had that much Germanic admixture there would be no French speaking nation, all Neustria and more would have Germanized but evidence shows that past the Loire there wasn't any real influence and even in Neustria we didn't have a situation like Belgium or the Rhineland.
This implies that Celts, if they were this southern, didn't influence Northern Celtized people(Northern France, Belgium, Middle Germany even) that much(maybe just 10-20%) which while possible does re-frame entire discussion, because I honestly can't believe that Germanic populations had actually such a large impact as far south as Occitania when modern Germany past the Rhine or the Main is already relatively southern and not especially close to Scandinavians or Lower Saxons(based on gedmatch).
There is 2 ways we can really explain how ALL of the Frenchies outside Basques and Corsicans are more northern than the Swiss and southern Lech samples and I believe Germanics cannot be the culprit based on historical and linguistic grounds while locals+Celts having already looked like this works better.
I can agree that using "Rhaetians" is a cop out but at the same time I think that the Celtic phenomenon might have been ultimately "multi-racial"(as multi-racial as central Europeans can be) even if the original Celtic areas were 30-35% Steppe(Basque-like). Or maybe talking about original celtic areas makes no sense and Celts expanded from a sizeable region with different genetic make-up, anything other than the existence of "original celts" will destroy all models, because the La Tene Celts that invaded 4th century BCE Italy would have been different to the Celts that expanded into France or Britain earlier.
"Favor", in this case, means score more of. Swiss Germans/French(who really are the only two populations I'm arguing about) do not score more of Italic than they do the samples I labeled Celtic. I never once argued Swiss don't have Roman admixture, it's the how much I'm arguing about. You, and others, argue for Swiss pretty much being the result of northern Europeans+southern Europeans, I make the argument they're a mix of northern+already central+southern, and more northern/central. You and token have modeled Swiss as 30-50% Italic, I argue the number is below 20%. The fits are literally better when using the samples I labeled Celtic than Italic if I use them seperately, and together Swiss/French populations score much more Celtic than they do Italic. How do you get favoring Italics from any of this information?Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Obviously it favors Italic in Italy, what does that have to do with anything? I was literally only arguing about the Swiss and Italians favoring Italics whilist Swiss favoring Celts literally supports my argument. You make good points about the other Empuires samples, but what are the chances of them sampling all 5 Celtic migrants? Here's the problem with this point, even though it's a decent one, we have no idea if the Celts in Iberia are from the actual Celtic homeland of the Alps and Hallstatt/La Tene. Celts in Iberia could've came from literally anywhere and acquired more admixture in France, how likely is it they went straight from Switzerland to Iberia? If they came from or passed through W France and then just followed the coast, it makes sense they'd be more northern because coastal central/NW France did have large Bell Beaker replacements because of low population density, the Bell Beakers from Britanny are more northern shifted than the only other BB samples from Central and southern France. Again, fine enough point but it's just silly to use samples from Iberia to use as Celts when you literally have samples from the Celtic homeland, and they aren't that old, some are mid-1000s BC, lots of ethnicity specific genetic drift already present in populations of that age.
As for your point on Germanic ancestry in the French, yes I agree, I was only trying to not stray too far away from your original model. I said as much myself, French(especially Britanny, but all of them do) need LBA/MBA insular Briton(French Beaker works as well) to remove inflated Germanic, that still has nothing to do with what I'm originally arguing about: Roman admixture in Swiss people(of whom Germanic admixture was also inflated in your models).
and yes, we do see Near Eastern/North African components north of Provence, why would there be more Republican era migrants than Imperial outside of Italy when Republican Rome held Gaulish/Celtic lands for what, 100-50 years, while Imperial Rome held them for what, nearly 400-500? While the Imperial Rome sample is just a mishmash of native Romans, immigrants, and their mixes, there is substantial evidence the average Roman(not dwellant of the city of Rome but inhabitant of Italy) was South Italian-Greek Islander like because of the impact said Imperial immigrants, as one Roman colonist in Iberia shows, and the Collegno outliers in Northern Italy and Pannonia/Hungary(the outliers to the Scandinavian-like Germanic migrants, not Republican Roman-like other Italians).
Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.4513% / 0.01451293
61.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
31.0 AUT_LBK_N
5.0 FRA_MN
1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 0.9754% / 0.00975433
62.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
27.4 AUT_LBK_N
9.0 FRA_MN
1.0 Mozabite
0.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 1.4406% / 0.01440605
71.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
27.0 AUT_LBK_N
1.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
and that's not even getting into Y-DNA, most of the exotic Y-DNA found in Europe today(your Es, Js, Ts, what have you) is nearly completely absent from neolithic farmers, especially in western European farmers.
I guarantee you when Hallstatt/La Tene samples finally get released(I agree with you they need to stop fucking studying neolithic and bronze age populations whom we know everything about already) and they show up as N. Iberian/SW French or even Central French people are going to be saying "hue hue Rhaetians" when similar samples already exist 1k years before then as far north as fucking Mecklenburg.