'Skipping' is not a past time enjoyed in discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
Printable View
'Skipping' is not a past time enjoyed in discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
Turn the telly on some time, and you'll see that the magical wonderful golden age of Light and Justice and Equality is drawing to a hurried end. Your 'dark ages' is just business as usual, now that the utopianism of the last few decades is cracking under the weight of reality. The ethnic question has re-emerged, sharper than ever. That history is a story of emergence from darkness into light was just a naive progressive fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
'People of Ashkenazi descent'... lol. I'm a person of English descent. Strangely enough, we just call ourselves 'English'. How come you lads get special rules? :bowlol:
Anyroad, you don't think you're English or owt, do you1?!!?! :eek:
Would an English person call herself Parisienne? It would be like blasphemy. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
Forgive me. I thought you'd be able to make the leap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beorn
I'm an American but speaking as one that has obvious close ancestral-cultural ties to England as well as having lived there and been involved with an English woman. I'll say that historically England has seen the Continent as the source of trouble, and the English speaking peoples as their solution. There is also the problems with France, and the English often associate Europe with France and the French have tried to say the English are not really European in outlook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebastard
Some of it is based in Anglo supremacism (we're too good for them, they'll say). Some of it is based in many Continentals themselves not seeing the English as Europeans.
:coffee: My previous question still stands open for an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
She's probably more English than I am ... and that says a lot ... I'm probably closer to the Queen in many respects than my Essex lady friend :D :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
Just being of European descent does not make Jews European anymore than the fact. I have German and Irish descent makes me either German or Irish. I might feel like I am more of something than I really am, but this is just the fate of race-mixed or ethnic-mixed people. Its not a good or bad thing, because it is what it is, and it is good to be proud of your European descent.
In my mind being Jewish sometimes coincides with being Jewish in the ethnical sense, but its not mutually exclusive, since everything is a process of becoming more or less whether it be artifical or natural via Heraclitus. A lot of Ashkernazis were fleeing all over Europe during the Middle Ages, even up to the Enlightenment.
None of them were officially settled in a specific country for a while, and many were killed during the Medieval Periods during the persecution of Jews. A lot of Jews lived in isolated enclaves within certain European nations, and had their own cultural lifestyle isolated from the surrounding culture. It was not until later after the Enlightenment where Jews were forced to adopt the surnames of Europeans, and officially adapt into their cultures.
Some Jews would affiliate more as Europeans, even though they were not, like Boaz. There were some who still considered themselves as more Jewish, and I don't have the data to show how this all correlates to their religious affiliation and the degree of Jewish blood they had or not.
In retrospect Jews never truly integrated into a lot of European cultures, because they never desired it or they never had the time to, because they were moving around all the time.
The couple that did are generally referred to as their European ethnicity + Jewish, so it would be fallacious to negate this part as I said. Even if they are part European in culture, identity, or both does not mean that they are part Non-European in their background via their Jewish bloodlines at the minimum.
I think its time to be honest, and the cold fact is that people with a Jewish ethnic background, or even a religious affiliation can't be considered truly or authentically European in whole. Usually if you have a cultural or religious affiliation with Judaism you have a Jewish ethnic connection, although this is not always the case as I stated earlier.
The point is though you can't consider yourself European if you have only European descent, but you are of Jewish bloodlines as well. Its also hard to consider yourself truly European if you believe in Judaism or practice Jewish cultural traditions, which applies to all European muslims as well.
'Dark Ages' is a turn of phrase referring to the pre-Renaissance era. Perhaps I just like to see the good in humanity, but I don't consider ignorance and fanaticism to be 'business as usual'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.
Btw Ossie is not nearly as menacing in real life as he is in the e-world :D :p
Here's some genetics for ya':
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O31KYx5a1g...89372-BGA4.png
^As you clearly see, Ashkenazi Jews are outside of the European reference populations cluster. There are some other McDonald PCA plots where Jews are clustering with the pseudo-European Cypriots (who aren't in the European cluster), but I couldn't find those with Google search.
Source: Dr. Doug McDonald
I'm English. I should be called English.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
.....
ah whatever. Another foreign type bleating on .
Ignoring difficult questions that challenge your faulty reasoning. Very nice. :coffee:Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
Awwww....Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
:kiss2:
Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronistic
Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots are not on this chart. They would bridge the gap.. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronistic
I don't find him menacing, thankfully. He's just not very sportsmanlike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Well, yes. Ashkenazi Jews may be extremely ethnocentric and endogamous in comparision to their European neighbours, but there have at least been some mixing with the goyim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I don't find them difficult, I'm just not going to continue wasting my breath on someone who resorts to bullying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
Jew Gold. :D I could do with some of that. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
Personally I don't know what to think. I see some Jewish people who I despise, mostly greedy, corporate, exploiting types, but then I see the majority who are just like the rest of us.
It is easy to say that these "bad Jews" are the result of the traits of the Jewish people, but when we look at our own people in such situations of influence we see how many of them are corrupted by power too.
There is probably a disproportionate amount of "bad Jews", the exploitative people who are the stereotype, but this is perhaps more the result of Jews having disproportionate access to such positions of power because of their past situation.
I hope I'm making some sense.
But as I said, most of them are decent people who don't want to cause any trouble and integrate and contribute well to society. Compare Jews to Muslims in Britain and I certainly know which group I prefer. Jews any day.
Then there's the problem of identity. This is an issue I haven't been able to decide on yet largely because it has to be a Jewish decision. I'm not sure whether Jews can ever be English.
On one hand you could argue it is just a religion, but then again it has all the strings attached - the history, the distinct sub-culture and identity, the siege mentality.
I'm trying to be impartial here, I have no fondness for Jews but I can hardly be said to hate them, if anything it's more a general indifference.
Most Jews in Britain identify as "British" I believe though, but that is just a nationality which embraces the various native and non-native ethnic groups so you might as well call yourself a citizen of the UN....
The native British ethnicities formed from old, extinct ethnicities and tribes with smaller elements from elsewhere. The problem is that the Jews have never really been accepted into one of them.
In Wales there was a minority Flemish presence, various French presences in England throughout history such as Norman and Huegenot (French Protestant). But as such a distinctive sub-culture the Jews have never fully become a member of one of the native ethnicities. Non-practising Jews are probably an exception, but it kind of defeats the purpose of the argument when they have to give up the religion the cherish so dearly to assimilate fully.
So in essence I don't know entirely what to think, so I'm rather on the fence about it at the moment until convinced otherwise.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue in Britain at least, sorry for the long-winded post.
Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots - Semitic (and a bit North African too, me thinks) admixed EuropeansQuote:
Originally Posted by Sicilianu101
Ashkenazi Jews - European admixed Semites
:p
No homo pls :stopQuote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
well ... maybe a little bro-love can go a long way :embarrassed
Dark Ages primarily refer to obscure periods for which written sources are patchy. In Britain it mostly means that between the departure of the Legions and the arrival of the Saxons.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
I've never heard it used for the High Mediaeval period as you imply here.
And ignorance and fanaticism is pretty much the natural state of mankind. You and your cousin Marx notwithstanding.
Not a single actual European ethnic group has failed to violently refute that rather insolent claim at some time or other. :coffee:Quote:
Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group.
No. Just NO. :coffee:Quote:
I was born in England, so I could be called 'English',
Insulting Rumanians, French AND English now. Nice one. :ohwell:Quote:
though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.
They are a group of dual origins. As such, they show a 'pull' from both sides in the mix when placed on such a chart. The European blood that the Jews have absorbed is pulling them closer to us. The same could be said of many Blacks with some Euro ancestry from the slavery period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Were the Cypriots ever Europeans proper, or just natives of that island next-door to Israel who just happen to speak Greek? I heard many different things from the Greeks on the forum in that other thread, so I'm not really sure what they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronistic
(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)
Indeed. I think the question here is: at what point do they stop being Semites and start being Europeans?Quote:
Ashkenazi Jews - European admixed Semites
So that's pretty much my opinion - some Jews are more European, others are more Semitic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
I don't think its up for questioning at all. I think a person can not be considered truly European if they are not European in both genetic orientation, mode of conduct(Which includes traditions, cultural rituals and practices, and religious practices), mentality(Which is shaped by the former), and finally language.
Language probably plays the most essential role at a substratum level, but its mutually inclusive as being an important matter along with the previous criteria. If you are Muslim you are not submitting your mode of conduct to the nature of your genetic orientation, which should coincide in possessing a certain European mentality.
A mentality which is extremely hard to form when one acts, believes, and thinks like a Muslim. If anything it is contradictory in its very nature to adhere to Muslim beliefs, and to incorporate it in a European culture by European peoples. This is because Islam was a religion practiced by Non-European peoples in situ.
This means the mentality and language which shaped and constructed the mode of conduct relating to the Islam religion is not European whatsoever. I think that it is resonable enough to say that if a genetic European practices an Eastern religion can not be considered truly European.
A person who practices Christianity though, although it originally takes its root in a Semitic thought and mentality can be considered European. This is because Christianity was structured, integrated and grounded in European cultures going back for almost a 2 whole Milleniums.
It was used as a tool for political, militaristic, cultural, and social affairs. It was shaped by people of largely European descent, at least its core dogma, laws, and doctrine. Its mentality and mode of conduct reflects linguistic nature of the people, which coincides and arose with a people of a certain genetic orientation, namely the European peoples.
I think its quite simple when you think of it, and Pagans and Agnostic/Atheists/Pagans can be considered European as well if they are at least of European origins in a genetic sense. Its impossible to be Jewish, Islam, or Buddisht and to act and be a truly European person if you are one.
Just like its contradictory to be Jewish, and to not believe in the Jewish religion. That said this might be too conservative of a viewpoint, since definitions are expanding in response to the dynamic changes in the social and cultural orientation of European and Jewish peoples in the modern era.
You sure that plot is only for Ashkenazim? :) Not disagreeing, just checking. But of course Ashkenazim would be closer to Europeans genetically than other Jews, because of long intermixing and living besides Europeans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronistic
Anyroad (Ossieism) good night and have fun. Loki out :thumb001:
I disagree with you. Ashkenazim are still the dominant force of Israel. Ashkenazi Jews are like 48% in terms of numbers while Mizrahi/Sephardic are 50% but Ashkenazim still are dominating the politics. However you are wrong cause in the beginning (in the 70's) when the Jews arrived in Israel , Ashkenazim didn't make the effort to distinct Jews by their religious rite , thus Jews from Greece who were Sephardic were counted as Ashkenazim because they came from Nazi occuped Europe and the chief Rabbi of Iraqi Jews was declared as Sephardic chief , despite the rite difference. Now , it has changed. The term Sephardic is only applied to Jews of North African and South European Jewish ancestry because of their clear connection with Spain and it has became a synonym of them. On the other hand Yemenite Jews are never considered as Sephardic , then you have Caucasian Jews who form a community and then all of from Iraq and neighbours areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by CircassianWine
Do Christians from Guatemala worship the same god that Christians from England?:fponder:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beorn
Here are some other maps of where Ashkenazis cluster.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../s1600/pca.jpg
http://theoccidentalobserver.net/tooblog/?cat=36
Does the Pope sh*t in the woods? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by El Comunero Errante
To be honest, my knowledge about Cypriots is limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunor
You mean like him:Quote:
(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)
http://www.krisvdv.net/pixelpost/ima..._man_sigar.jpg
:p
I'd say that Sicilians are one very diverse bunch of people.
Good question: When did they become European? Did they ever become European? I don't know. I'm a bit ambiguous when it comes to the Juice.Quote:
Indeed. I think the question here is: at what point do they stop being Semites and start being Europeans?
I agree.Quote:
So that's pretty much my opinion - some Jews are more European, others are more Semitic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
This is the problem with the way the public defines the identity of a people in a specific country. Its based more on just having citizenship, which completely runs in contradiction with how people have identified themselves over the age. This is because liberals and other scumbags have reduced the identity of a people to merely a social construct, instead of realizing it as a self-conscious and intrinsic value.
The Self-Conscious and Intrinsic value of a people's identity lies in the race-consciousness, which resonates and reflects itself from and towards the language and culture of a people. If one shares a similarity in language, culture, and ethnic background with only a margin of difference they share a similar self-conscious identity.
That said today's borders do not reflect this self-conscious identity which exists among certain peoples. Civic Nationalism is not a viable solution to identify someone's background, but only an illegitimate classification which the elitists and intellectuals of previous generations and this generation advocate for.
This was all done to open up the boundaries of nations to a global economy, which would be runned by powerful Plutocrats and Businessmen, who want to make as much money off this open-ended idea regarding national identity.
The ignorance and Fanaticism does not have to do with people who are merely speaking the truth, but those who wish to deny it by saying they are something when they are not. Most people do not realize that their identity is now open ended and can be liberally interpreted due to the fact that powerful and greedy men want to use you as an instrument for their money flow and power.
They in retrospect want to deride your true and authentic identity, and to undermine it by re-constructing it around a civic nationalism, which does not account for self-conscious or instrinsic meaning. You are not only advocating for an idea that runs contradictory with who you are, it negates a part of you, which is inclusively essential to your being.
The extent to which it is is unknown to me, but you can not state one side of the story and forget another. You are affirming the A is now B, when you have to affirm A as not equaling B, and thus only containing a part of B. It might be better off if you never mentioned that they are Jews, and just list them Europeans.
The term Ashkernazi seems to be of no use or meaning if they are already Europeans by default due to their partial European ancestry, linguistic ties, and cultural assimilation.
Jews are Jews and Europeans are Europeans, and if they are mixed then they are partially both to some extent or another. But A is not B if its only partially itself and B, and you can use the partial inclusion of B as an excuse to negate the A portion contained by B and within it.
I absolutely agree with you that language is hugely indicative of a person's cultural mindset. Hasidic Jews speak Yiddish, and I would not consider them to be white or European. Most practicing Jews keep kosher. That is also markedly un-European. My personal take on how a person can be 'Jewish' without practicing Judaism is because Judaism is also an ethnic subgroup. This is precisely why I identify as having Jewish heritage. I'm sorry that this response was extremely brief, but I'm tired and need to go to bed. I will try to respond in full tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeistFaust
:thumb001: Joe, you're absolutely right. Just look at how the English view the EU for a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy
Indeed, America is the close ally, Australia is the alternative life and Canada and NZ are the kin.Quote:
and the English speaking peoples as their solution.
Agreed. Some of the older, less well-informed folks will blame anything the EU does on the French.Quote:
There is also the problems with France, and the English often associate Europe with France and the French have tried to say the English are not really European in outlook.
Then they go and holiday there. :rolleyes:
Western Euros have an inferiority complex towards America and the Anglosphere. They just see the Anglosphere as Britain craving America's attention instead of a cultural entity.Quote:
Some of it is based in Anglo supremacism (we're too good for them, they'll say). Some of it is based in many Continentals themselves not seeing the English as Europeans.
Britain seeking to remove itself from European affairs must mean that it is sneaking off to Washington. :rolleyes2:
Maybe Jews are best treated as a distinct identity that transcends borders like the Aromanians or the much less welcome Roma.Quote:
Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.
There's arguments either way. Damn, Jews are confusing. :rolleyes:
It shows the whole Israel thing is probably a lie as far as the Ashkenazi are concerned, they must be largely Khazar converts.Quote:
Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!!
They prefer the term "Neolithic farmers". ;) Some people say R1b and a arrived off the steppes, so should we be "Iranian Nomads"?Quote:
Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots - Semitic (and a bit North African too, me thinks) admixed Europeans
And I is related to J distantly too.
In what way?Quote:
Insulting Rumanians, French AND English now. Nice one.
Not surprising considering that Ashkenazim entered Europe via Italy and Greece before :) and all the tralala Greek-Roman-Jewish dramas stories of I love you and me neither that happenned in Antiquity . The Map doesn't even include Balkans and South Italy who bridge the gap you see between Tuscans , Romanians and Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Do you only HAVE something? Are you unable or unwilling to BE!?! Why the bizarre word games? You are, at the end of the day, a Jewess, no? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
Well no one would call the Greeks European if they hadn't have founded the civilisation. :D South East Europe shows a lot of Neolithic genes derived from the Middle East but it is unfair to label the people as "Middle Eastern".Quote:
Were the Cypriots ever Europeans proper, or just natives of that island next-door to Israel who just happen to speak Greek? I heard many different things from the Greeks on the forum in that other thread, so I'm not really sure what they are.
(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)
They've mixed with other European groups and have European culture and traits. If you labelled Greeks as Middle Eastern then you'd have to label all the other neolithic farming haplogroups in Europe as the same, so you'd get Middle Easterners at more than 10% in Germany for instance.
To be fair though, many of the subclades of these haplogroups show version specific to Europe and to certain regions of Europe. These subclades are barely ever found in the Middle East.
Just look at R1b and R1a - would you say that Slavs are Afghans because both have R1a although the subclades are totally different?
What about R1b in Ireland and Turkey?
Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeistFaust
I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne
I think if you have a certain heritage this does not negate the possibility of adopting a different language or culture, which is European in nature. That said even if you have only partial European ancestry you can not negate the fact you are part Jewish.
A Jew who takes on a different language and culture is still a Jew, especially the closer they are from diverging and abandoning the language, modes of conduct, and mentality which makes them truly Jewish.
The longer the duration of time they have separated themselves from Jewish languages, modes of conduct, and mentality does not negate their Jewish background, especially if they remain a pure blood more or less.
They still are Non-Indo-European even though they believe in creeds, practice traditions, and speak a code of communication which coincides and has arisen out of Indo-European peoples.
I mostly agree with Anachronistic about teh J00s. They're at the blurry limit between European and Semitic, and some are more of the former while others are more of the latter. The majority of Ashkenazim can pass as white in the racial sense. Are they culturally European? That's up for debate.
Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Albion
I do not practice the Jewish faith. I am a pagan. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. I cannot BE a fraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo