South Italians are 50% West Asian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Capelli
It's a lot for an "European" country. ;)
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South Italians are 50% West Asian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Capelli
It's a lot for an "European" country. ;)
Yes, but so do Greek islands, Malta etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unpopular
A campanian would still score 50% European on EUtest V2. Mainland Greeks score 60%. West Asians score 10-20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unpopular
A half mailand Greek half Polish person would cluster with Serbs.
A half Campania half Polish person would cluster with Romanians.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/1...est-three.html
[So what could be the cause of this relatively recent Siberian gene flow into Northeastern Europe? The best bet is the Uralic expansion and, for the Chuvash and Mordovians, perhaps also the Turkic expansion. Based on latest linguistic research, the pre-proto-Uralics appear to have expanded at some point from Siberia into the Volga-Ural region, in far eastern Europe. During the Bronze Age the Uralics proper then expanded from the Volga-Ural both back to the east and also west, as far as the Baltic (see here).]
I see problems with that.
Based on K=9 ADMIXTURE analysis results (with Mal'ta components)
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png
estonians have very little light yellow and orange. So, either those components arrived to karelians and finns and saamis (I am assuming that other baltic finnics have more of light yellow when compared to estonians and livonians, based on maris and chuvash) after the arrival of finnic languages, or the switch to finnic languages had to be almost without immigration (at least not from the Karelian direction). On the other hand, there is the spread of N1c, which also had to precede the spread of the light yellow component.
One problem I see is that while saami is supposed to be the least changed of the (baltic-)finnic languages, livonian and seto and estonian are supposed to be the most changed among baltic-finnic languages - and they were supposed to split first from the "proto-baltic-finnic". If one dates the arrival of finnic languages to the Baltic Sea coast at the bronze age (3000 years ago), then that means that higher density sedentary half-agricultural people in Estonia and Livonia for some reason took over a language which mostly left behind stone-age vocabulary - with just a tricle of migrants.
I don't see how proto-saamis could bring finnic language to Estonia or Livonia - not in metal ages and maybe never. There are other issues as well - toponyms, folk tales, etc. - which in my non-professional opinion are in conflict with a late arrival of finnic languages to the Baltics.
The suggestion that this relatively new "siberian" admix came from the southern steppes instead (via mordvins) has another problem since that direction was supposed to be blocked by balts or baltoslavs already during the bronze age. The more north-easterly route would face the same problem as that of Karelian route - it would have had to be through "proto-saamis" whose population density was way lower and lifestyle more archaic than that of estonians, setos and livonians (and adsele finnics in eastern latvia).
And the largest problem I see is the use of a linguistic tree-model approach, instead of a network-model. Based on the tree-model approach, they a priori exclude the 'unknown' language in the contemporary baltic-finnic area prior to the "arrival of the finnic languages". With a network model, it could be tried and tested as part of the uralic languages, one which later took over something from the more eastern uralic languages.
One early wave of siberian-like genetic influence arrived to Karelia around 7000-8000 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure ja
You are talking about the aUZ = Mesolithic Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov here I assume -what else.
Language aside, but I don't see why later contacts similar to the aBOO = Bronze Age Bol'shoy Oleni Ostrov would not have brought some genetic influence as well, especially to the ancestors of Karelians and Kargopol Russians.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003296
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7082/dersfig1.png
Ancient waterways:
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/.../waterways.png
Aila, those influences that came from the north-east (from the samoyed- sürja-komi direction) were from peoples who fed on reindeer and smaller game. There was no reindeer in Estonia since epipaleolithic. Also, I haven't seen any genetical evidence (besides N1c) that any of those mesolithic or neolithic or metal age "asian" influences arrived to Estonia. At least not yet. There is very little orange / dark yellow of the "han" component among estonians. There is also very little light yellow.
And why didn't those influences from north-east spread further west to Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania?
Because the Baltic shore peoples were sedentary and had higher population density when compared to north-east.
And if we consider the south-eastern route through Mordovia, than that route would have had to come from Sarapol through Moscow towards Pskov and Tartu. Moscow area was at the border of finnic and baltic tribes. Anything west to Moscow was supposed to be baltic already by the start of the bronze age. So whatever came to Estonia and Latvia could not have come via south-west of Moscow, but it also couldn't have come much further north-eastern route because there you do not have as advanced agriculture any more. I don't see how one can postulate the spread of finnic to Estonia and Latvia without explaining how it outcompeted baltic dialects and the supposedly unknown prior language. One could argue that the south-estonian dialect could be the result of such a wave from south-east, but that does not explain why that bronze age wave stopped at the very geographic border of Allerod shorelines in Estonia 13000 years ago.
Perhaps I should also add that the samoyed languages seem more influenced by finno-ugric than finno-ugric by samoyed. If that is true, then tundra peoples were more influenced by forest zone peoples than vice versa. So that makes it less likely that samoyed could initiate a change and a spread of finno-ugric, at least outside of the saami area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure ja
The Kargopol Russians and Mordovians have more recent (recent meaning 1300-2100 years) eastern admixture compared to Finns, and presumably Estonians who weren't tested, but don't really show the orange Han component in the K9 Mal'ta study either, so whoever they mixed with didn't carry it.
http://oi42.tinypic.com/2u9lohf.jpg
Quote:
those components arrived to karelians and finns and saamis (I am assuming that other baltic finnics have more of light yellow when compared to estonians and livonians, based on maris and chuvash) after the arrival of finnic languages
The siberian component is very likely older than Finnic languages in the Baltic region. In the bronze age it might even have extended further than the uralic speakers ever did, as the bronze age Danish sample on the global PCA below shows as much eastern affinity as the most eastern Finns. The northern Baltic area probably just wasn't so densely populated in the Bronze Age that a language switch would have been impossible. I don't think bronze age remains from Finland or Estonia would look much different to the Danish sample on a PCA. Someone would need to do tests on Finns and Estonians to see whether their siberian has a different date, if Finnish is not more recent the lower level of Estonians most likely is explained by greater mixing with balto-slavs over time.
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2hp0my0.jpg
Voted no.
It's a Middle Eastern component that mostly likely arose in Mesopotamia, archaeological and genetic evidence indicates that the Caucasus was populated by migrants during the Uruk period during the 5th to 4th Millennium BCE. It is most certainly not a European component, and just because it's found in large quantities in Southern European groups doesn't imply that it is a European component. The only indigenous European components are North_European and Baltic, and other related ancestral components. I couldn't care less how long it's been in Europe.
Dumb ass, North Caucasians have Northern European admixture. That's why they look more European than Georgians do, who hardly have any. Also, Georgia is at a higher latitude than the countries just south of it are. So the climate is much more temperate, hence why they're lighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine
On the contrary, Gedrosia is found in Europe. Yet incidentally, the WHG component isn't. Which further vindicates their Near Eastern Neolithic origin.Quote:
Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.
So what, just because Georgians lack those other two components doesn't mean they're European. West Asian is not a European component, get over it.Quote:
Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.
You don't need extraordinarily large sample sizes to represent an entire population 20-30, is sufficient to make inferences about the entire population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellenas
Europeanized? Give me a fucking break, it still originated in the Middle East. Their paternal haplogroups would still ultimately be East African in origin, so cry me a river.Quote:
It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?
False analogy. It isn't anything at all like declaring that a Turk is Non-European because of the geographical location he was born in, is part of Europe. That Turk is still genetically Non-European, and some Southern Europeans despite being in Europe for a long time are still partially genetically Non-European.Quote:
Originally Posted by Energia
Haplogroups are very, very tenuous portion of your entire ancestry, and it has absolutely no effect on phenotype. Autosomal DNA however, does. Also genes mirror geography for the most part, so there is in fact a genetic cline that starts and ends in Europe. Those populations don't include Turks.Quote:
Europe doesn't end on Gibraltar and Istanbul, these are mere geographical conventional terms, in reality you see clines and clines...
otherwise tell me why I should consider West Asian alien but haplogroup N European?while it's much more spread in Siberia than Europe?
How about you learn to accept the facts about your Non-European ancestry?Quote:
How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:
Do you have a problem with that, if so, allow me to give you a late Christmas present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis
http://img0.etsystatic.com/001/0/584...kl1.jpg?ref=l2
It's closest North European, because North European branched off from West Asian, which is further substantiated by the interrelationships between the components.Quote:
Originally Posted by safinator
Considering the fact, that we don't have WHG related ancestry. I wouldn't snidely dismiss as being "Dienekes' wet dream/ultimate fantasy land." Regardless how long it's been present in Europe, what we know for sure is that it did not emerge in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesuvian Sky
It's not part of Europe, you fucking idiot. Europeans are a Middle Eastern daughter population, therefore is most certainly is Middle Eastern DNA that YOU are carrying not the other way around, all genetic and archaeological evidence supports this. Also, the East Eurasian and Sub-Saharan African in most parts of the Middle East are negligible at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonhead
Iranians don't score anywhere close to 90%. More like 48.4%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordopelli
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2
You've reversed those two, it's actually most due to Neolithic migrations from the Fertile Crescent followed by more recent historical migrations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marowit
Pure European is a social construct in a lot of cases. This is why it's stupid to define people like Vince Vaughn as mixed.
According to who?Quote:
Originally Posted by chwarae
Near east today is not near east of yesteryear. I would not assume its origin is in the near east, most of anatolia was depopulated several times.
Look everyone, another moron who doesn't understand the ancestral clusters in ADMIXTURE calculators. West Asian is a composite component of Gedrosia+Caucasus. Otzi is 20% Caucasus, because Otzi was an early Neolithic farmer genius. The early agriculturalists were rich in the Mediterranean component, which also originated in the Middle East. The Caucasus component is a result of a later expansion of farmers. "Southern" is a conglomeration of two components, Southwest Asian and Mediterranean, it is not Caucasus or Gedrosia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solin
So yes, Greeks are still partly Non-European.
Near Easterners are still much more genetically diverse than European even today, genetic diversity can only be attained through an accumulation of mutations over time. It doesn't matter if the Near East today is not the same as yesterday, no human population today is the same as the one that it's descended from. Near Easterners, particularly the ethnic minorities are the best proxies we currently have determining the origin of early European genetic history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonhead
Do you honestly think the Europeans of today, are the same as the ones from the Mesolithic? If so, maybe you need to take a closer look at the Europeans who have been tested with the EEF/WHG/ANE calculator. EEF is the component that's representative of the earliest European farmers, who were a mixture of Near Easterners and WHG.
What about anything I have ever said would cause you think I have a problem with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru
And Real Christmas is next week...
We can have African roots, Middle Eastern, West Asian so what? Aren't all Europeans outsiders? We have Europeanized, having white natural skin colour, Euro-Mediterranean Hellenic facial features, Alpine and admixed mith Dinaric, mostly dark brown straight and wavy hairs, mostly brown and light mixed eyes, mostly straight & Alpine noses etc, etc, etc. Aren't we Europeans according to you? Take care, we have nothing to do with your Asian kind. We say we are Europeans and we are Europeans. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru
Greeks Cluster Genetically with other Europeans
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thre...ally-europeans
Because what matters is autosomal DNA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Energia
Haplogroup N while present in Scandinavia at 30- 65% makes up only 2 - 15% of their genes. Haplogroup N by the they arrived in the Urals were more european looking than siberian
Who or what do you mean by 'we'?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru
Again, dismissive or 'snide' of what? Its entrance into Europe strictly during the Bronze Age? Are you sure you understood what I meant?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru
No kidding...Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru
Only some greeks have 50% non-european, most have 37% and some have less than 30%.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangepulp
Greeks cluster closer to Europeans which is the same for Italian this is different to Turks of Turkey and Middle easterners who cluster to West Asian.
I don't even know if the East Med and the Gedrosia/Caucasus components can be considered middle eastern, considering that North Euros score 10-20% of that.
Fuck this genetic bullcrap. If you look white or whiter or less white, it is that what the fuck you're. Deal with it.
So far Chechens and people from that region look whiter then half of Europe today so call it whatever you like.
What about dravidian albinos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
http://www.turdfergusonblog.com/wp-c...1693375157.jpg
The guy look Northern European, while the lady does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ButlerKing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
The lady looks more european than any west asian person I met ( with the acception of west asian that look north european )
Not till she removes that Indian thing from her forehead. Which I was about to say on my post:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ButlerKing
It doesn't matter if it's not european. Europe did not exist as it did today. "west-asian" is a west-eurasian caucasoid component for sure. Modern day europeans have east-eurasian ancestry via the north-european component and the siberian mal'ta connection. So west-asian is the least of your worries. You can see europe's genetical mixture via the EFF-WHG-ANE calculators.
Europeans are west-eurasians with some east-eurasian ancestry, via mal'ta like people, who were a pre-historic siberian population that also are linked to native-americans. So you all can stop with these fantasies about a genetically isolated and pure super-european people, they never existed. As much as you'd love to deny it, you're related to west-asians, because you have the same genetic base. On top of that you share ancestry with a non-caucasoid population like native-americans.
http://bga101.blogspot.com/
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/11/...thic-lake.html
so you and hitler were fucked from the start. It's a petty and pathetic endeavour to pretend that europeans are some pure-blooded master race. I'm sorry... but all genetic studies prove that europeans are not. This is why your race-puritan ideologies will never work. The more sciences unravels genetic facts, the more dumb and misguided you seem.
^ Both West Asian and North European components are equally East Eurasian admixed (or shifted if you prefer).
Little do people care about 24 000 year old mal'ta boy and East Eurasian link there of. What matters is modern time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackscarred
It is mostly about who was here first (wherever here is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackscarred
Or who has inherited more from those who were here first.
Because that is what is useful in contemporary politics.
It's not European, but it's a part of the DNA of all the peoples living in Europe whether we like it or not. The further north you go, the less Mediterranean and West Asian people score.