Dodecad k12b West, Central & South Asian results Vol. 3

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Originally Posted by Kyp

Zoroastrian from Kerman:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an-SVG.svg.png

Gedrosian: 30.87
Siberian: 0
Northwest_African: 0
Southeast_Asian: 0
Atlantic_Med: 6.64
North_European: 10.08
South_Asian: 6.31
East_African: 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 11.13
East_Asian: 0.00
Caucasus: 34.84
Sub_Saharan: 0.07

Distance to: Zoroa_Kerman
6.51915639 Iranian_Fars
6.98535611 Iran_Mazandaran
7.67295250 Iran_Khorasan
8.13628908 Iranian
8.85932842 Yazidi
9.31608823 Lur_Iran
10.14589572 Talysh_Azerbaijan
10.30930648 Kurd_Sorani
10.41063399 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.00379026 Kurd_KAZ
11.58585776 Azerbaijani_Iran
11.78129450 Zaza
12.47714711 Azerbaijani
12.57019491 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
13.01853678 Turkmen_Iraq
13.15881074 Parsi_India
13.62802260 Azerbaijani_Turkey
14.21657835 Iran_Bandari
14.97160646 Turkmen_Iran
15.28678514 Lezgin
15.53459687 Turkmen
15.54823141 Turk_Southeast
15.70611664 Tajik_Herat
16.08162927 Udi_Azerbaijan
17.56473456 Iraqi_Baghdad


Distance: 1.2703% / 1.27032217
Target: Zoroa_Kerman | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.0 Iran_Mazandaran
9.0 Balochi
5.5 French
3.8 Mixed_NW_Euro
1.7 Iranian_Fars



Persian from Malayer (Hamedan province):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an-SVG.svg.png

Gedrosian: 21.36
Siberian: 0.98
Northwest_African: 1.13
Southeast_Asian: 0.00
Atlantic_Med: 8.18
North_European: 12.64
South_Asian: 6.25
East_African: 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 12.14
East_Asian: 0.69
Caucasus: 35.04
Sub_Saharan: 1.58


Distance to: Iranian_Hamedan
7.14819558 Azerbaijani
7.74117562 Azerbaijani_Iran
8.73145463 Azerbaijani_Turkey
8.86913750 Turk_Southeast
8.99912218 Kurd_Kurmanji
9.24224540 Iran_Khorasan
9.31179360 Kurd_Sorani
9.61368816 Yazidi
9.61929831 Iranian_Fars
10.35059419 Turkmen_Iraq
10.38040462 Zaza
10.51371010 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
10.52320769 Talysh_Azerbaijan
11.01708673 Turk_South
11.41347887 Turk_Central_East
11.80772628 Turk_Central_West
12.09508578 Iranian
12.24514598 Lur_Iran
12.94948262 Turk_West_BlackSea
12.99395244 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
13.07074214 Kurd_KAZ
13.12072788 Udi_Azerbaijan
13.12083458 Turk_Southwest
13.24414588 Iraqi_Baghdad
13.57252003 Turkmen_Iran

Distance: 0.8052% / 0.80516815
Target: Iranian_Hamedan | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.0 Kurd_Sorani
21.5 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
7.4 Pomak
5.7 Parsi_India
4.0 Lithuanian
3.0 Pulliyar
1.4 Mandenka

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South Asian is same, but Gedrosia of the second sample went to atlanticmed/NE. Also no turkic admixture. Interesting :).

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Originally Posted by Fedora

South Asian is same, but Gedrosia of the second sample went to atlanticmed/NE. Also no turkic admixture. Interesting :).

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Yes I think the Gedrosian could have went into the North_Euro in this case.

The low turkic is indeed surprising for Hamedan but actually not that much: Malayer is at the very south of Hamedan province while Azeris live in the north of Hamedan province most noteably in Razan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...amadan.svg.png

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Originally Posted by Kyp

Yes I think the Gedrosian could have went into the North_Euro in this case.

The low turkic is indeed surprising for Hamedan but actually not that much: Malayer is at the very south of Hamedan province while Azeris live in the north of Hamedan province most noteably in Razan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...amadan.svg.png

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How much is the Turkic ratio around Isfahan? Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

How much is the Turkic ratio around Isfahan? Is there any?

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I know very little about Isfahan province. I can only think of Qashqais in Southern Isfahan. There might be some resettled families in the north of Isfahan close to Teheran region too.

Here is a map (Turkmen excluded), Iranian Wiki also has turkish at 7% making it the second most prominant language in Isfahan: https://www.tappersia.com/wp-content...n-1140x855.jpg

North European went into Gedrosia, seriously? Lol. How about the North European simply being higher than we used to seeing?

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Originally Posted by Demhat

I wrote specifically Arabic Semites, having Christian Semites in mind. Even very endogamous Arabic speaking or non Aramaic-Christian Semites scrore visible African admixture.
Take Samaritans for example. They score almost 5% Northwest African which makes historically absolutely no sense. I doubt it has anything to do with Islamic expansion.
Or take Yemenite Jews or even Bedouins, who are nomads and generally very endogamous, we are not talking simply about citizens of Arab states here who can be maxed with anything imaginable. Even they score around 8-10% East/Northwest African.

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NW African in this calculator is not any indication for SSA admixture, it would be ridiculous to assume so considering many West Eurasians score it. NW African represents in all likelihood the Eurasian in NW African as you can see North Africans themself score SSA and East African in addition to NW African.

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My point is when you consistently find a admixture linked with certain ancestry (Arabian/Levantine). Chances are high a good chunk of it is not really admixture but little more ancient shared ancestry.

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That's exactly what it is. East Africans have 50%~ West Eurasian input, most of it being Natufian-like and since this component is based on modern Horners it's no surprise that some Natufian-rich people in West Asia irregularly will score some if it. Notice how in this calc SSA does not show up in Christian and Jewish Semitics, not even on an individual level. It's extremely rare to see it popup. But Muslims do score some if it, compare Lebanese Muslims(0.47) and Christians(0) or Palestinian Muslims(1.63) and Christians(0), from the updated spreadsheet.
So I would say East African in this calc for many Natufian-rich people is not necessarily an indication of SSA input, however if you're an Turk or Iranian since these populations do not have much Natufian input and your East African is above 1% chances are it's real(and recent), especially if you score SSA on top of it.

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Take Turks for example. They too have been effected by the Islamic world and we know a good number of Turks existed with African admixture. However over the whole population it is not a consistent ancestry makes it clearly a better candidate to being real admixture.

I don't doubt that there is African admixture in the Arabic world due to Islamic expansion but I don't believe all of it over the whole region is really admixture.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Leto

The Northwest African is not Sub-Saharan, ignore it. Iberians and Italians can score 5% NE African on Dodecad and they're European. Focus on SSA and East African. You can check the Somali and Ethiopian averages for this calculator (updated).

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That's why I want us to shift to Harappa world. The NW African component is problematic, it eats up both the SW Asian and West Med/Atlantic Med and is very irregular.

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Originally Posted by Kyp

Zoroastrian from Kerman:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an-SVG.svg.png

Gedrosian: 30.87
Siberian: 0
Northwest_African: 0
Southeast_Asian: 0
Atlantic_Med: 6.64
North_European: 10.08
South_Asian: 6.31
East_African: 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 11.13
East_Asian: 0.00
Caucasus: 34.84
Sub_Saharan: 0.07

Distance to: Zoroa_Kerman
6.51915639 Iranian_Fars
6.98535611 Iran_Mazandaran
7.67295250 Iran_Khorasan
8.13628908 Iranian
8.85932842 Yazidi
9.31608823 Lur_Iran
10.14589572 Talysh_Azerbaijan
10.30930648 Kurd_Sorani
10.41063399 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.00379026 Kurd_KAZ
11.58585776 Azerbaijani_Iran
11.78129450 Zaza
12.47714711 Azerbaijani
12.57019491 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
13.01853678 Turkmen_Iraq
13.15881074 Parsi_India
13.62802260 Azerbaijani_Turkey
14.21657835 Iran_Bandari
14.97160646 Turkmen_Iran
15.28678514 Lezgin
15.53459687 Turkmen
15.54823141 Turk_Southeast
15.70611664 Tajik_Herat
16.08162927 Udi_Azerbaijan
17.56473456 Iraqi_Baghdad


Distance: 1.2703% / 1.27032217
Target: Zoroa_Kerman | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.0 Iran_Mazandaran
9.0 Balochi
5.5 French
3.8 Mixed_NW_Euro
1.7 Iranian_Fars



Persian from Malayer (Hamedan province):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an-SVG.svg.png

Gedrosian: 21.36
Siberian: 0.98
Northwest_African: 1.13
Southeast_Asian: 0.00
Atlantic_Med: 8.18
North_European: 12.64
South_Asian: 6.25
East_African: 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 12.14
East_Asian: 0.69
Caucasus: 35.04
Sub_Saharan: 1.58


Distance to: Iranian_Hamedan
7.14819558 Azerbaijani
7.74117562 Azerbaijani_Iran
8.73145463 Azerbaijani_Turkey
8.86913750 Turk_Southeast
8.99912218 Kurd_Kurmanji
9.24224540 Iran_Khorasan
9.31179360 Kurd_Sorani
9.61368816 Yazidi
9.61929831 Iranian_Fars
10.35059419 Turkmen_Iraq
10.38040462 Zaza
10.51371010 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
10.52320769 Talysh_Azerbaijan
11.01708673 Turk_South
11.41347887 Turk_Central_East
11.80772628 Turk_Central_West
12.09508578 Iranian
12.24514598 Lur_Iran
12.94948262 Turk_West_BlackSea
12.99395244 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
13.07074214 Kurd_KAZ
13.12072788 Udi_Azerbaijan
13.12083458 Turk_Southwest
13.24414588 Iraqi_Baghdad
13.57252003 Turkmen_Iran

Distance: 0.8052% / 0.80516815
Target: Iranian_Hamedan | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.0 Kurd_Sorani
21.5 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
7.4 Pomak
5.7 Parsi_India
4.0 Lithuanian
3.0 Pulliyar
1.4 Mandenka

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Solid results

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Originally Posted by Aren

That's why I want us to shift to Harappa world. The NW African component is problematic, it eats up both the SW Asian and West Med/Atlantic Med and is very irregular.

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Nah, you can just ignore it or treat as Middle Eastern. It's really minor or non-existent outside North Africa, the Levant and Southern Europe.

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Originally Posted by Leto

Nah, you can just ignore it or treat as Middle Eastern. It's really minor or non-existent outside North Africa, the Levant and Southern Europe.

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Originally Posted by Aren

NW African in this calculator is not any indication for SSA admixture, it would be ridiculous to assume so considering many West Eurasians score it. NW African represents in all likelihood the Eurasian in NW African as you can see North Africans themself score SSA and East African in addition to NW African.

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It looks like Iberomaurisian

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Originally Posted by Aren

NW African in this calculator is not any indication for SSA admixture, it would be ridiculous to assume so considering many West Eurasians score it. NW African represents in all likelihood the Eurasian in NW African as you can see North Africans themself score SSA and East African in addition to NW African.

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NW African is modeled here after Mozabites who score 98%. There is no doubt Mozabite eats up some SSA shared ancestry if we know/believe that NW Africans have Taforalt ancestry too. However as you also pointed out in this particular case I assume it is the Natufian like shared DNA in NW African that is popping up among Semites here, cause I don't see how NW African could have mixed with Samaritans. So agree.

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That's exactly what it is. East Africans have 50%~ West Eurasian input, most of it being Natufian-like and since this component is based on modern Horners it's no surprise that some Natufian-rich people in West Asia irregularly will score some if it. Notice how in this calc SSA does not show up in Christian and Jewish Semitics, not even on an individual level. It's extremely rare to see it popup. But Muslims do score some if it, compare Lebanese Muslims(0.47) and Christians(0) or Palestinian Muslims(1.63) and Christians(0), from the updated spreadsheet.

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Well that was my point wasn't it? Maybe we were talking past each other. I think a large portion of this (in some groups maybe even all of it) is probably Natufian/Levant_Neo like shared ancestry.

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So I would say East African in this calc for many Natufian-rich people is not necessarily an indication of SSA input, however if you're an Turk or Iranian since these populations do not have much Natufian input and your East African is above 1% chances are it's real(and recent), especially if you score SSA on top of it.

Agreed.

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Yes, another indication that this SSA is real, if it pops up in Turks or Iranians, being that it is not a consistent uniform ancestry that you find in most Turks or Iranians. So can't be an ancestral shared admixture.

But exactly the same is most likely the case with most of the South Asian in Iranic speakers. Since it is so consistently found over the whole population it does not favour the idea of mixing, but more the theory of shared ancestry.
For example I know that with modern Calculators like K12b Iran_Neolithic scores around 10% South Asian. That is obviously not modern ASI like ancestry in Iran_Neo but Iran_Neo ancestry in the South Asian reference population. I even remember that Yamnaya samples popped up with ~3% South Asian in Dodecad K12b. Obviously again it's not admixture from South Asians but Yamnaya ancestry in the reference pop for South Asians.

I highly doubt that populations like Tajiks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs Turkmens had any contact with South Asia either despite of scoring universally some percentages.

That is the weakness of admixture calculators, especially admixture calculators that use modern pops as reference.

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That's why I want us to shift to Harappa world. The NW African component is problematic, it eats up both the SW Asian and West Med/Atlantic Med and is very irregular.

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Calculators that use modern proxies will always have issues. But as you said some calculators might be better than others.