Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:

Code:

---

Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305,0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.006034,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8        Slav
24.6        Roman
22.4        Thracian
10.2        Proto_Bulgarian

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andre

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:

Code:

---

Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305,0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.006034,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8        Slav
24.6        Roman
22.4        Thracian
10.2        Proto_Bulgarian

---

---

Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

---

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Eastern Bulgaria has a definitive Turkish majority with a ratio of 80% to 20%. IRO was present in regions such as Dobruja and Edirne because Bulgarian officers were well organized and trained by Russians, while Turks were a bunch of villagers.


Also, just to prove what I had stated:




Dodecad K12b comparison of two populations:

https://i.ibb.co/7R99L82/K12B.png

And let's look at the newly coming Proto-Bulgar article by Stamov that PAGANE mentions:



1- What is "a distinct Caucasus signal?" He uses Vahaduo(this is also funny btw) to make such conclusions, what did he see? 10 Distance to Alans or something?
2- How Proto-Bulgarians can be close to the THRACIANS?
3- How you concluded they are Sarmatians?



Well, it is Q-L330, which is Hunnic.

The Alan L330 which I posted before in this forum was an outlier, and his admixture was actually Bashkir-like. So, it has nothing to do with Sarmatians or actual Alans.



Interesting... Claiming Eastern Roman heritage up to 30%, yet 0-10% Thracian at the same time. That's probably because he considered Scythian Moldovans as Proto-Bulgars, while they are Thracians.

I mean, me, being all of my ancestors are from Thrace, have only 0-10% Thracian?


You can check all the notes from the work here

---

So yes, what we see here is this research was done by someone who is highly biased or not qualified enough to carry out it. In this sense, it is also wrong to expect that this article will make a contribution to what we know. Perhaps it can work if he decides to share all the data publicly yet what he will write in the article already will manipulate people.

---

Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

---

Yes, even after N there are some other routes in which additional Iran_N can be carried to the region. But Proto-Bulgar is not one of these, because all the neighboring populations score similar amounts except for Turks. He tries to deep dive into possibilities, this is not wrong. The actual troll is making a conclusion about Proto-Bulgars by looking at modern Bulgarians who don't have an additional admixture compared to other South Slavs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.

---

Balkan Turks are a mix of Oghuz Turks who came from Anatolia(without Anatolian admix, in the nomadic form), Tatars, and Anatolian Turks who settled after the 1600s. (See: Celali Rebellions) The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar. On the other hand, some regions in Thrace and Macedonia also known as Cuman settlements. Eventually, it might consist of all of the groups mentioned above and what we see here is like 80-85% Balkan and 15-20% Central Asian on average. -Anatolian admixture seems to be absorbed- Another point is these people melted in the same pot and it is not possible to make a conclusion by looking at Turkic populations they get. I mean, Oghuz already mixed with Kipchak, and Oghuz & Kipchak already mixed with Proto-Bulgar(if there are)... So, there is actually a chance that the language shift of Gagauz can be about Proto-Bulgars. Turks from Deliorman known in the same way among the local people.


Briefly, I'm implying Proto-Bulgar admixture is not present in the Balkans, yet even if we presume it is preserved in some way, it would be among Balkan Turks. Because:

1- Eastern Bulgaria, where Proto-Bulgars settled, was a Turkish region before the Russo-Turkish War. The Bulgars who had lived there mixed with Turks. Most of the Bulgarians who live in the East now came from the West during Communism.
2- Among all the Balkan ethnics, only Turks and some Romanian individuals have elevated Gedrosia/East Eurasian. Bulgarians are not different than the rest of the South Slavs.

Why not Gagauz?

Also in Gagauz, but they mixed with other Christians(Slavic Bulgarians, Greeks) and EE lowered eventually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar.

---

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman, which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Moldova_Gagauzia	10	19.56	22.60	18.18	13.67	20.38	2.04	0.78	0.56	1.06	0.26	0.40	0.36	0.15

</google-sheets-html-origin><google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman	12	21.55	22.98	17.68	11.44	20.38	2.69	0.60	0.57	0.87	0.55	0.65	0.00	0.05

</google-sheets-html-origin>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman, which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Moldova_Gagauzia	10	19.56	22.60	18.18	13.67	20.38	2.04	0.78	0.56	1.06	0.26	0.40	0.36	0.15

</google-sheets-html-origin><google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">

Name	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman	12	21.55	22.98	17.68	11.44	20.38	2.69	0.60	0.57	0.87	0.55	0.65	0.00	0.05

</google-sheets-html-origin>

---

Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-conten...BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-conten...BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

---

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1940-2010.jpg

Why don't Bulgarians learn their real pre-history?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1940-2010.jpg

---

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.