Genetic portrait of Piast Dynasty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cass

With the methods currently available to us, the chances are probably small. We have no clear idea when, or even if, the Celts became Germanized in Bohemia and Silesia. To the Romans, everything north of the Alps was considered Germania.

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According to Tacitus, at least in the 1st and probably also in the 2nd century, Gotini and Osi were distinguished by their Celtic language.

Cornelius Tacitus, Germany and its Tribes

Quote:

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The Narisci border on the Hermunduri, and then follow the Marcomanni and Quadi. The Marcomanni stand first in strength and renown, and their very territory, from which the Boii were driven in a former age, was won by valour. Nor are the Narisci and Quadi inferior to them. This I may call the frontier of Germany, so far as it is completed by the Danube. The Marcomanni and Quadi have, up to our time, been ruled by kings of their own nation, descended from the noble stock of Maroboduus and Tudrus. They now submit even to foreigners; but the strength and power of the monarch depend on Roman influence. He is occasionally supported by our arms, more frequently by our money, and his authority is none the less.
Behind them the Marsigni, Gotini, Osi, and Buri, close in the rear of the Marcomanni and Quadi. Of these, the Marsigni and Buri, in their language and manner of life, resemble the Suevi. The Gotini and Osi are proved by their respective Gallic and Pannonian tongues, as well as by the fact of their enduring tribute, not to be Germans. Tribute is imposed on them as aliens, partly by the Sarmatæ, partly by the Quadi. The Gotini, to complete their degradation, actually work iron mines. All these nations occupy but little of the plain country, dwelling in forests and on mountain-tops. For Suevia is divided and cut in half by a continuous mountain-range, beyond which live a multitude of tribes. The name of Ligii, spread as it is among many states, is the most widely extended. It will be enough to mention the most powerful, which are the Harii, the Helvecones, the Manimi, the Helisii and the Nahanarvali. Among these last is shown a grove of immemorial sanctity. A priest in female attire has the charge of it. But the deities are described in Roman language as Castor and Pollux. Such, indeed, are the attributes of the divinity, the name being Alcis. They have no images, or, indeed, any vestige of foreign superstition, but it is as brothers and as youths that the deities are worshipped. The Harii, besides being superior in strength to the tribes just enumerated, savage as they are, make the most of their natural ferocity by the help of art and opportunity. Their shields are black, their bodies dyed. They choose dark nights for battle, and, by the dread and gloomy aspect of their death-like host, strike terror into the foe, who can never confront their strange and almost infernal appearance. For in all battles it is the eye which is first vanquished.

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https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...3Achapter%3D42

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.04672095 Polish:PCA0620
0.04761455 Piast?:PCA0573B
0.05073874 Polish:PCA0573
0.05293252 Polish:PCA0618
0.05899906 Polish:PCA0617
0.06500771 Polish:PCA0574
0.07381067 Polish:PCA0251
0.07623285 Polish:PCA0574B
0.07903795 Polish:PCA0649
0.08202476 Polish:PCA0645
0.08236171 Polish:PCA0663
0.08464583 Polish:PCA0644
0.08732387 Polish:PCA0643
0.08850921 Piast?:PCA0648
0.08912534 Piast?:PCA0657
0.09151024 Piast?:PCA0252B
0.09380843 Piast?:PCA0660

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 3.5860% / 0.03585974
34.4 Piast?:PCA0573B
24.8 Polish:PCA0620
18.6 Polish:PCA0574
12.6 Polish:PCA0618
9.6 Polish:PCA0573

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

K36 of samples from your link:

Code:

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PCA0252B,2.69,0,0,0.75,0,3.14,0.52,0,0.20,0,23.87,0,9.17,31.82,5.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,17.31,0,3.56,0,1.82,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0660,0,0.33,0,2.16,0,1.27,0,0,8.78,0,23.80,0,15.07,10.58,4.15,3.72,0,0,3.26,0,0.31,6.49,13.97,2.39,0,0.15,0,0,0,0,1.85,0.35,0,0,1.38,0
PCA0648,0,0,3.10,6.41,0,0.96,0.49,0,4.32,0,18.15,0,2.81,21.94,10.71,0,0,1.18,0.31,0,0,12.88,0,4.91,0,0,2.52,0.14,0,2.90,2.08,1.77,2.41,0,0,0.01
PCA0657,0,0,7.22,6.28,0,10.67,0,0,8.64,4.08,4.78,0,25.76,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.44,0,0,18.41,0,0,0.23,0,0,0,0,0,4.29,0,1.06,6.14
PCA0573B,0,0.15,0,0,0,14.88,0,0,1.42,0,13.75,0,0.06,14.51,16.09,2.37,0,12.04,0,0,3.68,10.17,0,7.81,0,0,1.13,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.93,0
PCA0251,0.28,0,0,0,0.05,7.98,0,0,9.17,0,22.68,0,21.82,10.42,7.11,1.89,0,0,0,0,0,6.66,0,9.78,0,0,0,0.25,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.92
PCA0573,0,0,0,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.11,0,13.99,0,3.35,20.70,14.81,11.22,0,2.29,0,6.35,0.76,10.21,0,13.76,0,0.47,0,0.34,0,0,0.72,0,0.79,0,0,0
PCA0574,0,0,0,4.74,0,18.39,0,0,0.14,0,10.37,0,20.67,1.73,1.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,18.52,0,21.11,0,0,2.10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.07
PCA0574B,0,0,0,0,0,10.70,0,0,7.93,0,16.34,0,10.34,8.35,8.54,5.44,0,4.54,0,0,0,14.33,0.18,4.45,0,0,0,0,0,2.54,1.74,0,1.63,2.92,0,0
PCA0617,0,0,0,0,0.16,10.31,0,0,0,0,19.17,0,9.88,14.01,10.30,1.58,0,9.81,0,0.79,4.60,3.63,0,12.70,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.06,0,0,0
PCA0618,0.40,0,3.66,5.26,0,7.20,0,0,6.97,0,24.45,0,2.01,9.38,0.45,11.96,0,0,0,0,0,11.26,0,13.46,0,0,0,0,1.38,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15
PCA0620,0,0,2.32,0,0,11.00,0,0,5.23,0,12.81,0,9.82,6.69,4.73,6.64,0,4.59,0,0,0,10.64,4.02,17.20,0,1.07,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.25
PCA0643,0,0,0,3.07,0.86,4.89,0,0,3.49,0,12.68,0.96,4.41,7.45,14.61,0,0,6.21,0,0,0,0,15.00,11.22,0,0,0,2.26,0,0,4.61,2.86,3.21,0,2.21,0
PCA0644,0.52,0,0,2.58,0,0.27,0,0,6.65,0,27.84,0,0.77,21.51,13.01,4.09,0,0,0,0,0,7.63,0,4.62,0,0,0,0,0,2.26,0.14,0,8.10,0,0,0
PCA0645,0.18,3.39,0,0,0,13.02,0,0,6.25,0,5.05,0,15.37,17.53,0,2.60,0,0,0,0,0,14.37,6.76,9.29,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.42,0,3.03,0,0,0.75
PCA0649,1.20,0,0,2.55,0,5.90,0,0,0.07,0,22.60,0,11.36,15.89,1.03,0,0,12.02,1.46,0,0,8.57,10.85,3.16,0,0,0.96,0,0.16,0,2.22,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0663,0,0,0,2.07,0,13.64,0.25,0,18.07,0,17.71,0,13.54,14.99,4.08,0,0,0,0,0,2.08,5.24,0,6.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15,0

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Distance to: CDG
17.20465344 PCA0620
21.78182729 PCA0573
22.94907188 PCA0574B
23.48884203 PCA0618
27.68038295 PCA0617
27.86512695 PCA0573B
28.02296380 PCA0645
29.25405271 PCA0643
29.76419997 PCA0574
30.79309663 PCA0648
31.25428771 PCA0251
32.49111725 PCA0660
32.82286703 PCA0649
35.01149954 PCA0663
35.11156647 PCA0644
37.32162376 PCA0657
38.53311044 PCA0252B

Target: CDG
Distance: 1488.0719% / 14.88071904
61.2 PCA0620
36.2 PCA0573
2.6 PCA0574

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rothaer

Well, even in Central Germany you had not cremated Haßleben Germanics forming a nobility cemetary and exhibiting textbook rich Elbe Germanic material culture (Haßleben-Leuna Gruppe) and they were very "Celtic" not to say "French" in their genetics. These folks were doubtlessly ethnically Germanic from all historical and archeological definitions.

What I want to say is that we have to consider the existence of such Germanics.

Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %,0.135449,0.140143,0.056568,0.013889,0.041546,0.0 03626,0.00423,0.012461,0.009817,0.020046,0.007795, 0.004346,-0.007136,-0.006606,0.018187,0.007823,0.001956,0.015456,-0.001508,0.00075,0.007612,0.013849,-0.005546,0.005181,0.007185
Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %,0.126344,0.140143,0.053928,0.027778,0.048932,0.0 08367,-0.003055,0.002769,0.017998,0.023691,-0.006496,0.013788,-0.01442,-0.016102,0.008279,0.014054,0.014081,-0.003547,0.003142,0.008129,0.007362,0.003586,-0.001479,0.009519,-0.005389
Germanen_Haßleben:R11872___AD_450___Coverage_47.74 %,0.126344,0.157407,0.049026,-0.002907,0.045239,-0.004183,0.00752,-0.001385,0.01718,0.034807,-0.004709,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.01101,0.004207,-0.007027,-0.016428,-0.000507,0.002388,0.001626,-0.000125,0.003833,-0.003081,-0.008314,0.003233
Germanen_Haßleben:R11873___AD_450___Coverage_46.48 %,0.129758,0.146236,0.046009,0.022287,0.041854,0.0 10598,-0.00517,0.004615,0.011453,0.026242,-0.001949,0.009142,-0.015758,-0.014313,0.007057,-0.009149,-0.017211,-0.004054,0.003897,-0.011506,-0.004243,-0.002968,-0.00419,0.002048,0.002634

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Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.05552434 Germanen_Haßleben:R11873___AD_450___Coverage_46.48 %
0.05592146 Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %
0.05863694 Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %
0.08142415 Germanen_Haßleben:R11872___AD_450___Coverage_47.74 %

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 4.8999% / 0.04899871
42.2 Germanen_Haßleben:R11873___AD_450___Coverage_46.48 %
36.2 Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %
21.6 Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albannach

Has it? First I have heard that. I am a member of the L1335 FTDNA group, and I've never seen anyone mention any ancient samples, In fact, there's still a lot of discourse on whether L1335 or more specifically, L1065 is Pictish or Gaelic or even Cumbric in origin.

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This Pictish sample is LUN004.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cass

According to Tacitus, at least in the 1st and probably also in the 2nd century, Gotini and Osi were distinguished by their Celtic language.

Cornelius Tacitus, Germany and its Tribes

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...3Achapter%3D42

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Yes. I did expressly mention the Cotini, here obviously called Gotini, for the time of the Marcomannic Wars (at abt. 166 AD). That shall have been the last time that Celts were mentioned in that area. As for the Osi your quote of Tacitus assigns their language not as Celtic but deviatingly as Pannonian (whatever that means exactly - Illyrian?).

Lucas Lapinski in the Genetic Genealogy Facebook group:

“Are the Piasts a family from the R1b group?
Not necessarily.

I calmly analyzed the scraps of knowledge we got from the source data over the weekend, and the Monday conference.

What we know for sure:
1. 33 burials were analyzed that were classified as "Piasts"
2. the data of a dozen or so Y-DNA samples were given, from which we have haplogroups R1a and R1b
3. the lineages of three of the five sons of Boleslaw the Wrymouth have been examined
4. we have no data from generations earlier than Boleslaw the Wrymouth
5. we don't seem to have even a sample of the Wrymouth himself (the dating of the sample completely disagrees).

Undeniably, the offspring of the duke's youngest son - born after his father's death - Casimir “the Just”, belonged to the male group designated R1b. We do not know if Casimir himself, but certainly already his son Konrad the Just, whose sample was marked as No. 05 - YES.
Only Konrad's great-great-grandson Casimir I Trojdenovic turned out to be a “R1a side-shot", all the others - samples 5, 11, 13, 15, 16 and 17 are R1b.

While quantitatively R1b prevails, counting the filial lines themselves, a serious doubt is introduced:

1. the son of Krzywousty Casimir senior (+1131), who died young, marked as sample 02, is Haplogroup R1A
2. the son of another of Krzywousty's sons, Boleslaw the Curly - Prince Leszek - sample 03 - is also Haplogroup R1A

If we do not have a confirmed and researched descendants of the Greater Poland line of Mieszko “the Old” or the eldest son - the Silesian line of Wladyslaw the Exile, which will confirm the R1B (or R1A) line, then as of today we only know that not the Piasts belonged to the R1b line, but specifically the Piasts of the Mazovian-Cuyavian line from the line of the posthumous child, about which we can not be sure whether he was the son of the Wrymouth (he was not even included in the will)

* TWO LINES of Boleslaw the Wrymouth's descendants belong to haplogroup R1A.
* TWO LINES are still unexplored.
* ONE LINE of the Wrymouth's descendants are carriers of the Y chromosome of haplgroup R1B.

This much we know as of today.

Having experience in Y-DNA research for more than a dozen years, I am very cautious about such revelations.
I don't know if I'm reasoning correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Below is my summary, and from a slide from the conference

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)"

https://i.imgur.com/3X4UNL6.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/UB6qvx0.jpeg

Lapinski wrote:

Quote:

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5. we don't seem to have even a sample of the Wrymouth himself (the dating of the sample completely disagrees).

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He is talking about this slide from the conference:

https://i.imgur.com/OCUP2wD.jpg

On the other hand, PIAST02 died at age around 40 according to this slide:

https://i.imgur.com/SKJAHqf.jpg

So it seems thhat he could not be Kazimierz (who died as a child at age 9).

We will see who is who when the paper is published in Nature Communications.

Lucas Lapinski made another chart which assumes that PIAST02 is Zbigniew:

https://i.imgur.com/wrAwKj6.jpeg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Lucas Lapinski made another chart which assumes that PIAST02 is Zbigniew:

https://i.imgur.com/wrAwKj6.jpeg

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Btw. the last Piast was an ethnic German, Herzog Georg Wilhelm von Liegnitz, Brieg und Wohlau, d. 21st of November 1675.