Scytho-Turkic Z93 branch Z2125 vs. Indo-Aryan migration theory

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Originally Posted by Gilgamesh900

Like i said, being Iranic is more to do with linguistic terms rather than racial one. I mean, i seriously doubt the Alans would have been any genetically different from other west asians and etc. People change their languages and identities all the time, and Turks are no exception to that rule either. Of course, cultural assimilation comes with admixture, and it varies from people to people. Some people have little admixture and some have a lot. Assyrians for example are a Semitic people, but genetically they are very close to Armenians, Kurds and other northern middle easterners and caucasians.

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You think Alans were like northern Caucasians, butthey were described by Romans as northern European looking. And how come ''Assyrians''/Syriac or Aramean Christians are closer to Kurds and Armenians than to other Semites?

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

So you think they are not real Alans or what? What about Jassic Hungarians?

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they are of course alans and sarmatians but their ancient ancestors spoke most likely caucasian languages and were iranized by a scytho-sarmatian elite. The same is true is true for many other people because languages and cultures spread often through elites and not through genes

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Originally Posted by Vir9

they are of course alans and sarmatians but their ancient ancestors spoke most likely caucasian languages and were iranized by a scytho-sarmatian elite. The same is true is true for many other people because languages and cultures spread often through elites and not through genes

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So you belive once long long time ago in a fairytale Ossetians spread from Germany to mongolia?

Like this
http://www.slovio.com/origin/slavic-speaking-world.jpg

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

You think Alans were like northern Caucasians, butthey were described by Romans as northern European looking. And how come ''Assyrians''/Syriac or Aramean Christians are closer to Kurds and Armenians than to other Semites?

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Because being Semitic is just an ethno-linguistic term, and they are nothing but Semitized northern mesopotamian natives. As for Ossetians, maternally speaking, they do have genetic ties with the Alans, and this study shows it:
"In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 12 Alanic burials on the Don River, 6 samples turned out belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 samples belonging to mtDNA I. This is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2"
https://www.academia.edu/7061155/%D0...D0%A1._312-315

Duke, Scytho-Sarmatians didn't spread so far either and they were not the only inhabitants in Scythia. Also, of course different tribes, in different regions ended up mixing with locals.

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Originally Posted by Duke

So you belive once Caucasians spread from Germany to mongolia?

Like this
http://www.slovio.com/origin/slavic-speaking-world.jpg

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no i was only talking about the ossetians who seem to have a caucasian substrate and are genetically different from other scythians which were tested and had almost all y-dna r1a-z93. Northern scythians were genetically somewhere between eastern europeans , northern caucasians and modern non-mongolic central asians (tajiks, pashtuns, pamiri)

I thought Semites came from Messopotamia, but Alans almost for sure did not came from Iran or Persia.

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Originally Posted by Vir9

no i was only talking about the ossetians who seem to have a caucasian substrate and are genetically different from other scythians which were tested and had almost all y-dna r1a-z93. Northern scythians were genetically somewhere between eastern europeans , caucasians and modern non-mongolic central asians (tajiks, pashtuns, pamiri)

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Would this mean they were a mix of something like that?

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Originally Posted by Vir9

no i was only talking about the ossetians who seem to have a caucasian substrate and are genetically different from other scythians which were tested and had almost all y-dna r1a-z93. Northern scythians were genetically somewhere between eastern europeans , caucasians and modern non-mongolic central asians (tajiks, pashtuns, pamiri)

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because scythians expanded from Europe eastwards, and asimilating and mixing with everything in their path.

I told you why Caucasian people look similar to Balkan

Its scythians mixed with wogs :D

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

I thought Semites came from Messopotamia, but Alans almost for sure did not came from Iran or Persia.

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Proto-semites came from southern Palestine/Israel, and they are characterized by the haplogroup J1e or J1c3 which most modern Arabian males belong to esp Yemeni men. Anyway, what im saying is that the Ossetians are a mixture between iranian and caucasian peoples, and they aren't Turanid or Turkic like these annoying Turanists are claiming them to be.

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Originally Posted by Duke

because scythians expanded from Europe eastwards, and asimilating and mixing with everything in their path.

I told you why Caucasian people look similar to Balkan

Its scythians mixed with wogs :D

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I think they only ruled North Caucasus area, but maybe that's where they get European admixture.

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Originally Posted by Gilgamesh900

Proto-semites came from southern Palestine/Israel, and they are characterized by the haplogroup J1e or J1c3 which most modern Arabian males belong to esp Yemeni men. Anyway, what im saying is that the Ossetians are a mixture between iranian and caucasian peoples, and they aren't Turanid or Turkic like these annoying Turanists are claiming them to be.

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But you don't think Alans and the rest came from Iran, do you? I think they were Europeans.

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

I think they only ruled North Caucasus area, but maybe that's where they get European admixture.

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no

Damn, i posted this before, short term memory fail?
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/sh...skeletons.html

Besides, most of North Caucasus is Rus, if you call that Caucasus
http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/u...Layout_rev.png

And thats where precisely Alans came from
http://www.annodomini.org.uk/wp-cont...tcmAlanMap.jpg

Now, i believe Alans could be close to Ossetians, because its a generally mixed area between Russians, and Caucasus mountain people

there is no scytho turkic. scyth is persian and modern day bulgars, tchuvash and ossetians have ggot scythian genetics

i got a scyth tattoo aswell

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

Would this mean they were a mix of something like that?

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yes scythian had probably very much ANE and looked rather like depigmented modern eastern iranics (irano-nordoid). They were also close to modern slavs because of common indoeuropean ancestry but looked slightly different
Attachment 54256
Attachment 54261
Attachment 54258
Attachment 54259
Attachment 54260
Here are some facial reconstructions of scythians.

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

But you don't think Alans and the rest came from Iran, do you? I think they were Europeans.

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I think they were Europeans but i dont know. All i know is that the ossetians are genetically linked with their ancestors maternally, and their language is an eastern iranian language descended from scytho-sarmatian language. I just find it funny that Turkish people are genetically very close to Caucasians rather than to Kazakhs and Kyrgyzstan, and yet, they keep claiming that they are 100 percent racially pure Turanian turks or something. I dont deny that they do have Turkic admixture buts its very exaggerated.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...09103-f2.2.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iYKtdl7HCQ.../s1600/1_2.png

The admixture chart:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...MIXTURE_10.png

Vir, do you think Alans were basically Ossetes and what do you think was the ethnogenesis of the Scytho-Sarmatian peoples like? And how come even Alans looked so light to the Romans?

Did they exagerate how light these peoples were, because Romans were even more Gypsy looking(darkies I mean) than modern Italians(if somehow possible)?

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Originally Posted by Bure

there is no scytho turkic. scyth is persian and modern day bulgars, tchuvash and ossetians have ggot scythian genetics

i got a scyth tattoo aswell

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The exceptionally high level of G2a1a in the North Ossetians has attracted attention and speculation. Since the Ossetians make claim to descent from the Alans, a group of Sarmatians, it was thought that the Alans or their predessor residents of the area north of the Caucasus. The type of haplogroup G in these European areas, however, is not G2a1a which is rare in Europe. Also rare in Europe is the type of G (G2a3b1) common among the Kabardinians and Adyghe and Abkhaz of the western Caucasus adjacent to the Ossetians.

If the Ossetian G2a1a originated in the major groups north of the Caucasus sometime during an approximate 2,000-year period, it would have been sequentially either from the Scythians, the Alans (and other Saramatians) or the Huns. All three groups were described north of the Caucasus in different time periods as they migrated from the east. Examination of ancient DNA from Scythian skeletons from the steppes to the east of the Caucasus has found only haplogroup R1a


Esentially they are G2a1a folk who make claim they were once R1a Russian like people

Turkic Speakers are the result of an East Iranic tribe, the Tur (Turan= land of the Tur) mixing with early Altaic groups.

The Pashtuns or Tajiks are as high in Haplogroup R1a z93 as any Turkic speakers. Since there is not much diversity of R1a1a in Turkic speakers they all probably descend from one single source(the Tur). It is not yet clear if Andronovo was the Proto Indo_iranian homeland, or just a very early settlements of the Proto Indo_iranians.

The Mitanni were probably proto Indo_Iranian speakers who were not yet diverged in the Iranic and Indo_Aryan branches.

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

Did they exagerate how light these peoples were, because Romans were even more Gypsy looking(darkies I mean) than modern Italians(if somehow possible)?

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would an Italian describe Russian group of barbarians as light?

And you got the answer :D

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Originally Posted by Foreigner

Vir, do you think Alans were basically Ossetes and what do you think was the ethnogenesis of the Scytho-Sarmatian peoples like? And how come even Alans looked so light to the Romans?

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alans were probably diverse looking people who assimilated various non-iranic tribes during their migrations. I think the orginial alans were predominately r1a like other scythians or sarmartians but they assimilated a huge number of caucasian people when they settled in the caucasus. Alans more in the north and far away from the caucasus had probably more r1a and were lighter. Alans were nomadic people and nomadic people often incorporated defeated tribes into their own tribal confederations. So many alans had probably also caucasian ancestry and some tests have shown that medieval alans carried already haplogroup G2 like modern ossetians. Haplogroup G2 is in this case clearly of caucasian and not of iranic origin because the oldest iranic people were almost entirely dominated by r1a and haplogroup G2 is very common among non-iranic caucasian people.

After the turkic and mongolic invasion most alans were either killed or assimilated by turks. Only the few alans who stayed in more mountainous regions survived this genocide and here they again mixed much with caucasians so that only few of them carry r1a today

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Originally Posted by gültekin

yet another, "Golden Woman" Scythian princess found in Kazahstan Terekti
description on the comb shows a war between Scythians and Iranians. so that's a big evidence, Scythians can't be fucking iranians
http://onturk.org/2014/08/20/altin-g...din/#more-4639
https://onturk.files.wordpress.com/2...=700&h=&crop=1
https://onturk.files.wordpress.com/2...=700&h=&crop=1

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It shows war between the Scythians and Persians who tried to conquer Scythia.

There was also war between Medes and Persians when Persians under Cyrus attended to take the power over the Median Empire. You probably never heard of "Brotherwar"?

Let me remind you on the Ottoman/Timurid wars. So going by your logic (if you ever had something called logic to begin with). Ottomans can't have been Turkic, right?

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Originally Posted by Demhat

Turkic Speakers are the result of an East Iranic tribe, the Tur (Turan= land of the Tur) mixing with early Altaic groups.

The Pashtuns or Tajiks are as high in Haplogroup R1a z93 as any Turkic speakers. Since there is not much diversity of R1a1a in Turkic speakers they all probably descend from one single source(the Tur). It is not yet clear if Andronovo was the Proto Indo_iranian homeland, or just a very early settlements of the Proto Indo_iranians.

The Mitanni were probably proto Indo_Iranian speakers who were not yet diverged in the Iranic and Indo_Aryan branches.

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pashtuns and mountain tajiks/pamiri have much more r1a turkic people. Only kyrgyz have also so much r1a like them but this seems to be the result of a founder effect and only in one region kyrgyz people had very much r1a.

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Originally Posted by Vir9

alans were probably diverse looking people who assimilated various non-iranic tribes during their migrations. I think the orginial alans were predominately r1a like other scythians or sarmartians but they assimilated a huge number of caucasian people when they settled in the caucasus. Alans more in the north and far away from the caucasus had probably more r1a and were lighter. Alans were nomadic people and nomadic people often incorporated defeated tribes into their own tribal confederations. So many alans had probably also caucasian ancestry and some tests have shown that medieval alans carried already haplogroup G2 like modern ossetians. Haplogroup G2 is in this case clearly of caucasian and not of iranic origin because the oldest iranic people were almost entirely dominated by r1a and haplogroup G2 is very common among non-iranic caucasian people.

After the turkic and mongolic invasion most alans were either killed or assimilated by turks. Only the few alans who stayed in more mountainous regions survived this genocide and here they again mixed much with caucasians so that only few of them carry r1a today

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There is a Zaza tribe called Alan, that's also interesting.

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Originally Posted by Instinct

There is a Kurdish tribe called Alan, that's also interesting.

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I guess, it's a Zaza tribe.

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Originally Posted by Alphawolf

I guess, it's a Zaza tribe.

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Indeed. They are Zaza speakers from Tunceli.

Fixed

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Originally Posted by Duke

you turks are retarded, in east europe and steppe ,horsmen were main type of warrior, but you are not Indo europeans, early turks are mongoloid, and you guys today are primarily anatolian, with minor mongol admix

Scythians were light haired people with Indoeuropan genes, and as study has shown they were not similar to Caucasus people

Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia were dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[38] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage

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I don't know of any study which has yet published Scythian or Sarmatian aDNA. But what I know is eye and hair color is not a sign of DNA. ancient WHG people were dark skinned while modern people of pred. WHG ancestry are light skinned. The first ever Steppe invader from Hungary was genetically in between North Caucasians and Ukrainians ending somewhere in "no mans land".

Taking into Account that all Indo_Iranians have a good chunk of ANE as well ENF and signs by Lazaridis that earlier Yanmaya people where like West Asian farmers and Northeast European H&G. I doubt that they had no close genetic connection to North Caucasians. Allot of people speculate 35% ANE 45% ENF and 20% WHG. Thats roughly in between North Caucasian and Russian DNA. Don't take modern genetic landscape of European Steppes as representative of ancient Steppes. The Steppes today are heavily affected by the Slavic(European Steppes) and Altaic(Asian Steppes) expansions.

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Originally Posted by Alphawolf

I guess, it's a Zaza tribe.

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You poor little troll. There is a Kurdish tribe of Alans in Sirnak, Van, Mahabad and Iraqi Kurdistan and Zaza are a Kurdish tribe. But I understand your butthurtness took over your mind once again.

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Originally Posted by gültekin

http://s27.postimg.org/yrvx97cz7/kurt_680557.jpg

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he has r1a like the earliest indo-iranian people and scythian and which real mongolic haplogroup you have??? E, G, or J ?

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Originally Posted by Vir9

alans were probably diverse looking people who assimilated various non-iranic tribes during their migrations. I think the orginial alans were predominately r1a like other scythians or sarmartians but they assimilated a huge number of caucasian people when they settled in the caucasus. Alans more in the north and far away from the caucasus had probably more r1a and were lighter. Alans were nomadic people and nomadic people often incorporated defeated tribes into their own tribal confederations. So many alans had probably also caucasian ancestry and some tests have shown that medieval alans carried already haplogroup G2 like modern ossetians. Haplogroup G2 is in this case clearly of caucasian and not of iranic origin because the oldest iranic people were almost entirely dominated by r1a and haplogroup G2 is very common among non-iranic caucasian people.

After the turkic and mongolic invasion most alans were either killed or assimilated by turks. Only the few alans who stayed in more mountainous regions survived this genocide and here they again mixed much with caucasians so that only few of them carry r1a today

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Alans were a tribal group of Sarmatians. The subgroup of G2a to which the Alans belonged was actually also found in Central Asia. There are even theories that this subgroup of G2a was brought to Caucasus by Alans. Alanic burials on the Don River were by majority G2a.

Alans were diverse in some Haplogroups. G2a beeing more dominant in Caucasus and Western Alans can be explained with bottleneck effect.

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Originally Posted by Demhat

Zaza are a Kurdish tribe.

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Don't be so sure about that. Zaza's i know say they are iranic but never accept the kurdish identity. There are some other who accept it though.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Don't be so sure about that. Zaza's i know say they are iranic but never accept the kurdish identity. There are some other who accept it though.

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You totally convinced me. A Turks words are the first I believe. And since you also seem to know more Zaza as I do. Since I totally have no contact to them in comparison to Turks who are their West and Central Anatolian neighbors, your words have more value.

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Originally Posted by Vir9

he has r1a like the earliest indo-iranian people and scythian and which real mongolic haplogroup you have??? E, G, or J ?

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Don't feed the donkey. ;)
it's probably his own unlce :D. Too much shit going on in the family line.

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Originally Posted by Demhat

You pure little troll. There is a Kurdish tribe of Alans in Sirnak, Van, Mahabad and Iraqi Kurdistan and Zaza are a Kurdish tribe. But I understand your butthurtness took over your mind once again.

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I do not care Kurdish boy, if you say so, then it must be true, of course.

bump

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Originally Posted by Demhat

You totally convinced me. A Turks words are the first I believe. And since you also seem to know more Zaza as I do. Since I totally have no contact to them in comparison to Turks your words have more value.

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I don't get the irony. But yes i know many zaza's from Elazig. I also know a lot about Kurds, their mentality and way of thinking. I can also hear the difference between kurmanci and zazaki.

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Originally Posted by Vir9

he has r1a like the earliest indo-iranian people and scythian and which real mongolic haplogroup you have??? E, G, or J ?

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interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3SsQx1a9sI

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Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan

think more in the Nostratic way, then the world becomes easier... :)

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Nostratic is too far fetched. Few scholars accept it, even less can define it.

You can go down the same path and argue that all humans spoke the same language in the past... And???

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Originally Posted by Vir9

yes i also think it was a result of a bottleneck effect. Alans had no presence in central asia

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Well actually there was presence of Alans in Central Asia. It is even said that they came from there, as we know from historic sources.

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and the subclades of g2 in central asia are different from that in the caucasus so it can been excluded that alans brought it into to the caucasus. G2 is also predominant among non-iranic caucasians and is rather an older pre-indoeuropean marker which can not be linked to early sarmatians and scythians. The early alans had most likely r1a but they were mostly killed or assimilated by turks and only few survived who mixed with caucasians

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I think you slightly misunderstood. The subclade to which Alans belong is also found in Central Asia too. In the Caucasus it is not connected to one Caucasic language group, but to all the Caucasians in the West who had been historically in contact with Alans. Such as Circassians/Abkhazians and Georgians. The one group is Kartvelian the other Northwest Caucasian. So some people have the theory that a large chunck of the G2a there is brought by Alans.

I simply believe that the original Alans in Central Asia were R1a*, G2a, R1b*, J2a1 mixed. And a group of them moved into the Caucasus and this group coincidently was predominantly G2a (bottleneck effect).