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Your example makes no sense: linguistic, archeology, history and genetics are all connected. If a group is simply assimilated they leave a lot of linguistical influences in the language that they adopt, it's natural. You don't see East Germanic linguistical influences in the Polish language, for example, so we can expect a complete subjugation of the Germanic tribes by the Slavs, maybe because they were much more numerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
It makes perfect sense - it seems you do not know what you are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Yes - and what? DID people died becasue of that? Toxic language or what?Quote:
linguistic, archeology, history and genetics are all connected. If a group is simply assimilated they leave a lot of linguistical influences in the language that they adopt, it's natural.
Yes, I see - there is a lot of borrowings.Quote:
You don't see East Germanic linguistical influences in the Polish language,
But what? If would be more, then people would instantly appeared, but when is not too much - they are vanished? :picard2:
Btw, according to that logic, Anglosaxons have to be gone, replaced by Frenchmen... :laugh:
Much more Irs, which all died and now lived there Englishmen... :laugh:
Yes, and what? You seems to not understand what you've just said.Quote:
for example, so we can expect a complete subjugation of the Germanic tribes by the Slavs, maybe because they were much more numerous.
You said, that people x subjugated people y, so logocally, both must existed.
Ergo - you just proved, that slavs and Wielbarkers exist, so, what's your problem?
Before East Germanic tribes such as Vandals and Goths, Poland was inhabited by the Lugiones.
The Lugiones are one of factions in EBII (which is a very historically accurate mod for M2TW):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...w-The-Lugiones
It is thought that they were a multi-ethnic federation of many tribes (Lugiorum nomen):
https://i.imgur.com/dojnCKO.png
http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg
http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg
No, it don't makes. You just sound confused trying to prove something using non-sensical analogies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
So where are the East Germanic influences in Polish? There are any dialect of Polish heavily Vandalic or Gothic-influenced like the languages of Northern Italy that reflect perfectly what occurs when a different language is imposed in another different tongue? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Cite one East Germanic feature found in the Polish language. I can cite the n-stem declension adopted by Spanish from Gothic (wardjan -> guardião), some war-related words and the genitive -ez from the Gothic -iks later latinized to -ici and have in mind that they where already heavily latinized before entering the peninsula. And you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
The Norman language derived from French certainly influenced the English, mostly lexically and more visible in formal situations but still a heavy influence. But still, the Germanic structure remained intact and the English is still considered a West Germanic language so you just proved my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
The Celticims in the English language is still obscure and need further research but the periphrastic 'do', loss of front rounded vowels and the rise of reflexives are just some that i can remember now.
What i said is that the East Germanic population was completely absorbed by subjugation, probably because the Slavs outnumbered them by a long margin and this is backed by genetic evidences like those that Peterski posted. They mixed and the blood was diluted more and more if you still can't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
I think it's you that have some problem.
I think that East Germanic borrowings existed already in Old Slavic. What is even more interesting (due to geography), some linguists say that there were West Germanic borrowings in Old Slavic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Some of those borrowings could be from the Bastarnians (Bastarnae) though.
It is exactly what you sugested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Not my fault, that you were talking nonsense.
So, please, do not put it on me.
words for bred, sword, prince aso...Quote:
So where are the East Germanic influences in Polish?
You are again talking nonsense.Quote:
There are any dialect of Polish heavily Vandalic or Gothic-influenced
You are disscussing with things, which I did not said.
Nothing strange, that you do not understand what we are talking about.
So, please, choose: either you are talking with your imaginable Rethel, or with real me.
If with the first one -I am ending this disscussion right now.
And what? Lack of such dialect killed people?Quote:
like the languages of Northern Italy that reflect perfectly what occurs when a different language is imposed in another different tongue? No.
And in Italy, existing of such dialect gave the life? :bored:
I just did above. Even three.Quote:
Cite one East Germanic feature found in the Polish language.
Did it make Celtiberians true and real Goths from Scandia? :picard2:Quote:
I can cite the n-stem declension adopted by Spanish from Gothic (wardjan -> guardião), some war-related words and the genitive -ez from the Gothic -iks later latinized to -ici and have in mind that they where already heavily latinized before entering the peninsula. And you?
You really have hard time with getting simple facts.Quote:
The Norman language derived from French certainly influenced the English, mostly lexically and more visible in formal situations but still a heavy influence. But still, the Germanic structure remained intact and the English is still considered a West Germanic language so you just proved my point.
The Celticims in the English language is still obscure and need further research but the periphrastic 'do', loss of front rounded vowels and the rise of reflexives are just some that i can remember now.
It was not a matter to debate english language.
I just showed you, how nonsensical your linguistic argument was.
No need for elaborating english matters. :bored:
And you again proved my point, acknowledging the fact,Quote:
What i said is that the East Germanic population was completely absorbed by subjugation, probably because the Slavs outnumbered them by a long margin and this is backed by genetic evidences like those that Peterski posted. They mixed and the blood was diluted more and more if you still can't understand.
that people survived. It is really so hard to get? :picard2:
No, you are the only one who have.Quote:
I think it's you that have some problem.
In one sentence you say, people are alive, and in the
second, you are denying that fact based on... language... :picard2:
can you finally decide what is your point? Did people extinct or they are alive?
They cannot be dead and alive at the same time.
Here is the archaeological situation in the 6th century AD:Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
pustka osadn. = depopulated areas (based on current knowledge)
A - Prague-Korchak-Penkovka cultures (Slavic)
B - Kolochin culture (Slavic)
C and D - Przeworsk culture (leftovers who didn't emigrate)
E - new settlements established by immigrants from Sweden
F - new settlements by immigrants from Thuringia
G - West Balts settlement area
Sasi = Saxons settlement area
https://s16.postimg.org/o9snet751/Mapka.png
Check also:
"Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland" by Andrzej Buko (English edition):
https://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_A...and_Discov.pdf
https://books.google.pl/books?id=i6A...%20981&f=false
Pyrlandia - the gociest region ever? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Lol
But in portuguese... bandido.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
In one region of Poland peasants were called "gocie", probably derived from "Goths".
Toponyms with "Got-", "Gut-" etc., possibly linked with Goths (but this connection is uncertain):
http://ksng.gugik.gov.pl/urzedowe_na...ejscowosci.php
http://i.imgur.com/WIdfjVA.png
Visigoths in Iberia were already very iranized. But we need remember slavs closes with iranics due satemization. Pomeranians in Brazil claim sarmatian ancestry.
http://eaglesanddragonspublishing.co...armatian-1.png
Don't blame me if you can't understand linguistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
All the words that you cited comes from Proto-Slavic and are very early borrowings directly from Proto-Germanic that ocurred in the earliest stage of formation of the language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Bread 'Chleb' from Proto-Slavic *xlěbъ.
Sword 'Miecz' from Proto-Slavic *mьčь.
Prince 'Książę' from Proto-Slavic *kъnędzь.
So, it's all that you have?
Now you can stop the ad hominem and start using real arguments. :bored:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Well, in Northern Italy just reflects what occurs when a existing population adopts a new tongue. In this case, the Gaulish population adopted Vulgar Latin by subjugation but you can still see heavy Celtic influence even after the Italian standardization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Just a example: Pader nòster, che te seet in ciel che 'l sia faa sant el tò nòmm che 'l vegna el tò regn, che 'l sia faa 'l tò vorè, come in ciel, inscì anca in su la terra.
The same in Italian: Padre nostro che sei nei cieli, sia santificato il tuo Nome, venga il tuo Regno, sia fatta la tua Volontà come in cielo così in terra.
If the East Germanic population in Poland before the Slavic settlements were really considerably, these type of dialect would have existed till today.
You didn't. You just searched for Polish words of Germanic origin and posted here. :picard1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Never said or suggested that, are you talking with a imaginary Token?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Again using ad hominem and zero concret arguments. :bored: You tried to use my linguistic arguments against me and i showed that your logic was flawed, simple as that. Or you didn't said "according to that logic, Anglosaxons have to be gone, replaced by Frenchmen... Much more Irs, which all died and now lived there Englishmen..."? :picard1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
People survived but mixed with the invaders and the Germanic blood was heavily diluted. Is it hard for you to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Language is very important and even you agreed with that so why you are denying it? Can you decide what you believe? And yes, the East Germanic people are extinct, i think it's obvious, but the genes are alive, heavily diluted but still alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel
Don;t blame me, if you are talking about things, I was not talking about - answering me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Token
Are from gotish, and there is more - but as I said, I am not going disscuss irrelevant topic.Quote:
All the words that you cited comes from Proto-Slavic and are very early borrowings directly from Proto-Germanic that ocurred in the earliest stage of formation of the language.
Bread 'Chleb' from Proto-Slavic *xlěbъ.
Sword 'Miecz' from Proto-Slavic *mьčь.
Prince 'Książę' from Proto-Slavic *kъnędzь.
So, it's all that you have?
It is hard to disscuss with your imagination - so I just informed you.Quote:
Now you can stop the ad hominem and start using real arguments. :bored:
And then they would be Wielbarkers, regardless they are descendantsQuote:
Well, in Northern Italy just reflects what occurs when a existing population adopts a new tongue. In this case, the Gaulish population adopted Vulgar Latin by subjugation but you can still see heavy Celtic influence even after the Italian standardization.
Just a example: Pader nòster, che te seet in ciel che 'l sia faa sant el tò nòmm che 'l vegna el tò regn, che 'l sia faa 'l tò vorè, come in ciel, inscì anca in su la terra.
The same in Italian: Padre nostro che sei nei cieli, sia santificato il tuo Nome, venga il tuo Regno, sia fatta la tua Volontà come in cielo così in terra.
If the East Germanic population in Poland before the Slavic settlements were really considerably, these type of dialect would have existed till today.
or not, only becasue would speak polish with gothic borrowings...? :picard2:
If I would search, I would paste here whole list of them. :picard1:Quote:
You didn't. You just searched for Polish words of Germanic origin and posted here. :picard1:
Arguments against irrelevant topic?Quote:
Again using ad hominem and zero concret arguments. :bored:
Men, I just said, I do not want disscuss things, which are totaly different topic.
What do you want me to argument about in such case? :picard2:
Supporting your offtopic? :bored:
I just am showing you how stupid it is...Quote:
You tried to use my linguistic arguments against me
So you admitt they are alive. I am glad. Disscussion is finished.Quote:
People survived but mixed with the invaders and the Germanic blood was heavily diluted.
Did I negate it somewhere?Quote:
Is it hard for you to understand?
Is not. Is important only as a feature of people - not otherwise. IrsQuote:
Language is very important
still are Irs, evern if they do not speak their language. They didn;t
died out, they didn't mutate into Saxons speaking their language.
Yes, probably from a Common East-Germanic language, but the greatest part of the Germanic words borrowed by Proto-Slavic comes directly from Proto-Germanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
I've never denied that, i think you just misunderstood me. By the way, it was a interesting discussion, it is always good to hear other points of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel