Turul Karom is very polite and respectful guy. I don't agree with insults toward him. That's why tumb down :)
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Turul Karom is very polite and respectful guy. I don't agree with insults toward him. That's why tumb down :)
And this is the best example: How illiterate you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
Other problem: Hungarians were not equestrian people. Just because the elite warrior classes had equestrian army, the most Hungarians (the common people) did not know how to ride a horse in high and late medieval and early modern period until the 1880s - 1890s era. Horse riding did not belong to the common knowledge of average Hungarian commoners until the late 19th century.
He is IE, so... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Lithuania: 224 985, Latvia: 91 845,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
Very interesting reply. However I don't have answer to many of your questions. It is indeed strange how M458 didn't show up in ancient samples yet. And people always took it for granted it must be proto-Slavic (which I supect it is anyway, but it isn't proven yet)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibran
We need to wait for more ancient studies :)
Vlajo Vukovic, what is the reason of the Bosniak way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
2000 years ago it was probably a small family (among proto-Slavs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
and couple others spreaded across Europe. Maybe 100 people. Even
1000 or 10,000 wouldn't make difference in hardships of finding it.
From when, 3000 years ago ? Is that really relevant ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
Yea, time will tell. I think(assuming the diversification is true) that it probably was disseminated around the Morava. Maybe thats why nothing is popping up elsewhere? Too early to tell. Can't wait to learn more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
I think if the oldest M417 sample is anything to go by, that it could have diversified around Ukraine and or Romania. Which would mean various clades that developed from this area would have been present in Sarmatians and or the fragmented Dacian Clan. Maybe even the Getae.
Arpad in Hebrew is a vampire (ערפד). :vampire:
Maybe M458 basal was provided by the Sarmatians, and then it could have been absorbed into and participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Then later clades like L1029/YP515/L260 could have developed as a result from this ethnogenesis, explaining why there is alot of M458 in Central Europe and almost no aDNA thus far from the area is M458.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Time is relative.
Otherwise, you are right, that play with letters has no sense. I agree.
Do you know who were the true equestrian people of Europe? Those who had the most horses per capita. You won't believe it: England , the Netherlands and northern Italy, The knowledge of horse riding was wide spread and they had the most horses per capita.
You do not understand my point. These were words that found the core of our lifestyle, and who we were before the unity of the Magyar tribes. As we have been in Europe for so long, of course we would have more Latin, Germanic, etc words in our vocabulary. Look at all the Arabic words in the Anatolian Turkish vocabulary. Are they Arabic now? No, because these words came into being after they have been settled and converted to Islam and placed under an Arabic cultural sway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stears
lolol, this is maybe the third or fourth time you bring this up again. Must you learn the perspective again? Pretending we did not talk about this is not very honest, friend...Quote:
Only the evil linguists and historians don't know about your fantasy. How sad.... And they globally conspired with their scholars from all around the world. Yes I know that such a conspiracy theories and fantasies exist among less educated proletarian people i Cumania like you and your ancestors. Do you really believe that all scholars conspired against your turanian tales?
This is a duplicate question from the “Turanid Race” thread. My reply: No, I have never said that all Hungarian and foreign linguists are liars. I do not believe in a coordinated global conspiracy as you claim I do. It seems as though you are using hyperbole to make my statements more outrageous than what I am actually saying. It also seems like you do not believe that there are political interests at play in these discussions (though obviously on any side, there will be politics involved). It is clear that the people have changed as have the powers, which is why you are attempting to slander by saying that Hungarian Turanists are afraid of “dead Hapsburg monarchs”.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=lingua+franca
Oh well. The tragic irony is that it is you and the shrinking group around which you that rely on seeing Turkic oriented Hungarian existence as "conspiratorial". Without the neo-Cuman-Turkic-conspiracy ghost for you to chase, you couldn't easily dismiss the science. But alas, as we are free time and again, we discover the truth about ourselves. With modern technology, this will only expedite the process of Turkic awareness in the population and make DNA, linguistic, and archaeological research easier. To quote from the same thread once more:
You accuse me (and all Turanists at large) of requiring the notion of an anti-Hungarian conspiracy in order to even exist. In reality, it is you and your ilk that need to make it look like we are all kooky conspiracy theorists in order for your weak arguments to exist. To this end, you wish to rally in cloistered places, be it academia or not does not matter, and shriek like banshees at the sunlight that sterilizes.
Don't fear who you are.
It grows larger every year. The folk art, the people, the Turkic international brotherhood... and this year, the government is supporting it with a large financial donation. If 250,000+ people each year is "pathetic", then I think you should re-evaluate your idea of cultural events. Maybe start your own event for "true" Hungarians and promote "real" Magyar culture? Oh wait, that would mean defining your terms, and as science progresses in favor of our Turkic past, that would only ostracize you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stears
Is this why you rage at the darkness rather than create the light? I suppose it is easier after all...
Don't feel too alone though. Your mantle is always waiting for you to take it up onto your shoulders once more. It was with you from birth and will be with you in your bones long after death.
Not my trail of logic. Not sure how you got that impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragan Ciganovic
The pinnacle of a troll post. Of course not every person owned a warhorse, but many people were skilled in horsemanship. It is well established. A very high % of Magyars in the past were skilled in horsemanship in relation to the non-nomadic West. The fact you would make the claim "Hungarians were not equestrian people" would make almost any modern scholar laugh. I think you're starting to make desperate claims to distance yourself from our Turkic-oriented past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stears
....this study is such gold, haha. Hopefully it helps to bring continuing awareness of our origins.Quote:
Originally Posted by blogen
"Thus, most of the population in the Carpathian Basin originated from the Hun-Turkic cultural community of the Eurasian Steppe and was accompanied by Slavonic and German-speaking groups."
I edited the Opening Post, adding some links to other studies with ancient Hungarian DNA. Two other studies found N1c, I2a and R1b Y-DNA haplogroups in conquest-era Early Medieval Magyars.
It is obvious, that they were a genetic mish-mash, united by common identity and culture.
Two Early Medieval Magyars with N1c:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...440.x/abstract
Early Medieval Magyars with I2a and R1b:
http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1...ges_cikk_u.pdf
Gyöngyvér Tömöry analyzed 27 Early Medieval Magyar samples:
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088...isek-angol.pdf
Check also Table 8. on p. 137 of Anna Szécsény-Nagy's dissertation.
Modern Szeklers have a non-negligible frequency of N1c - 6.52%.
Here are two samples from graves of known early Hungarian conquerors that were both R1b-U106.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Source is second link in supplementary material:
Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery
https://link.springer.com/article/10...438-016-1267-z
438_2016_1267_MOESM2_ESM.xlsx (17 kb)
Online Resource 2 (ESM_2): Results of Y-chromosome SNP typing using the GenoY25 assay (XLSX 16 kb)
https://i.imgur.com/bHImJzd.png
See also: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml
Magyars with R1b1b1a are from Karos-Eperjesszög, dated to ca. 900-950 AD.
One of them has Mongoloid mtDNA haplogroup B4d1. The other one has H6a1b.
Yes, that is claimed to be Germanic U106. The oldest samples are from Germanic areas:Quote:
Originally Posted by Turul Karom
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml
http://i.imgur.com/pg2bEQX.png
RISE98 is not much younger than estimated age of U106 as a whole (according to YFull):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/
^^^
Probably assimilated by Magyars in Ukraine, where East Germanic tribes were present.
But you know what ??? That was probably not U106.
Because U106 = R1b1a1a2a1a1 (and not R1b1b1a).
Source: https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
So it seems that the authors made a mistake. It was R1b, but not U106.
============
But it depends, because these designations like a1b1b1a... change over time.
Only names of SNPs don't change. Did they actually test them for U106 SNP?
Perhaps, but not quite... this data is newer and has more research behind it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Карта распространения гаплогруппы R1b в целом (R-L10, рис. 2.8.) ярко показывает, что это основной компонент, составляющий более половины Y-хромосомного генофонда Западной Европы. Лишь население южной части Аппенинского полуострова несет сниженные частоты этой гаплогруппы, поскольку у них преобладают средиземноморские гаплогруппы, да еще Скандинавия по географии гаплогрупп относится не к Западной Европе, а формирует самостоятельный северный домен, в котором преобладает иная гаплогруппа — I1.
Гаплогруппа R1b даже в большей степени свойственна Западной Европе, чем R1a свойственна Восточной, поскольку R1b во многих популяциях (Британские острова, баски и ряд других популяций Пиренейского полуострова) составляет даже не половину, а более двух третей генофонда. В целом, тренд гаплогруппы R1b — максимальные частоты у басков и постепенное снижение частоты к востоку от Пиренейского полуострова — очень напоминает географию классического маркера Rh-d (резус-фактор). Всплеск частоты на востоке Европы отражает повышенную частоту R1b у некоторых популяций башкир, известную из работы [Лобов, 2009]. Впрочем, нашим коллективом сейчас завершается подробное исследование разнообразия Y-хромосомы в популяциях башкир (более 1000 образцов). В этом исследовании выявлено, что частота R1b велика только в немногих родовых группах, тогда как для большинства родовых групп башкир характерны другие гаплогруппы, а частоты R1b у них невелики. Поэтому всплеск R1b на востоке Европы отражает не общеевропейскую закономерность, а лишь локальные закономерности происхождения отдельных родовых групп степных популяций Евразии.
"Haplogroup R1b is even more characteristic of Western Europe than R1a is characteristic of Eastern Europe, since R1b in many populations (British Isles, Basques and a number of other populations of the Iberian Peninsula) is not even half, but more than two thirds of the gene pool. In general, the trend of haplogroup R1b - the maximum frequencies in the Basques and the gradual decrease in frequency to the east of the Iberian Peninsula - is very similar to the geography of the classic marker Rh-d (Rh factor). The frequency surge in eastern Europe reflects an increased frequency of R1b in some Bashkir populations, known from [Lobov, 2009]. However, our team is now completing a detailed study of the diversity of the Y-chromosome in Bashkir populations (more than 1000 samples). In this study, it was found that the frequency of R1b is high only in a few generic groups, whereas for most generic Bashkir groups, other haplogroups are characteristic, and the R1b frequencies are low. Therefore, the outburst of R1b in the east of Europe reflects not a common European pattern, but only local regularities of the origin of individual generic groups of steppe populations of Eurasia."
Хотя R1b достигает высоких частот в основном в Западной Европе, карта (рис. 2.8.) показывает, что она (как и R1a) распространена повсеместно, занимая весь картографированный ареал и уходя далеко за его пределы по Евразии. Считается, что R1b имеет переднеазиатское происхождение, и разные ее ветви распространились по различным уголкам Старого Света, но особенно «повезло» лишь той ветви, которая распространилась в Европе и достигла в ней столь значительных частот.
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8-500x494.jpg
На рисунке показаны только ветви, которые подробно рассматриваются с помощью геногеографических карт; структура схемы соответствует полному дереву гаплогруппы R1b-L10 по версии ISOGG на октябрь 2015 г.
"The figure shows only the branches, which are examined in detail with the help of the genogeographic maps; the structure of the scheme corresponds to the full tree of haplogroup R1b-L10 according to ISOGG version for October 2015."
Source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629
------------------------------------
Regardless, I am sure there were plenty of assimilations along the way. It is to be expected with the nomadic way of life, and can be seen reflected in all Turkic peoples settled today.
What is R1b-L10 ??? It is not the same as R1b-U106.
First of all let's remember that we have two branches of R1b-M269 - Eastern and Western. And the most common Bashkir branch is a branch that split even before the emergence of M269:
https://i.imgur.com/IJiivt9.png
^^^ R1b-V88 is African (Chadic) branch, but it was also found in prehistoric Iberia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...Saharan_Africa
More about R1b-V88 can be found here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...02929716304487
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1393-5
IMO it came to Africa from Iberia or Italy.
Where does the name Bosna or Bosnia come from then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
We all know that Bosnians stayed under the rule and influence of Hungarians for a long time (before Ottomans) and they gave them the name Besenyo (Pecheneg) which in time turned into Bosniya. So Pecheneks=Badjanaks became Bosnyaks eventually. Latins also called them Bissenus
You can check this link as well if you are interested http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...ateline_En.htm
Oh please don't be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Bosniaks never existed, it's just religious ethnicity to divide muslim from orthodoxes nothing else.
You are really confused, I am writing the historical facts, not making up. You even dont need to check out the link, this is written everywhere,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosniensis
Pecheneg=Besenyo=Bosniya. You can research if you dont believe in me
How do you claim that your ethnicity didnt exist?
Bosniaks = Islamized Serbs, Macedonians, Greeks, Italians, Anatolians, Bulgarians,Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Muslims who did not move to Turkey stayed in Bosnia, while Orthodoxed expelled them from their original states.
For example Serbia removed all muslims from Serbia and they fled to Bosnia etc...
See U106 in the east here as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
https://i.imgur.com/A4qUmjL.gif
Pity..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosniensis
Ok you can believe whatever you want Idc that much
Bye
There was practicaly no Hungarian rule or impact in Bosnia, Bosnia was defacto indipendent and being remote and mountanious it is very much shielded from outsiders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Bosniaks have nothing to do with Turks, they are genetically almost indistinguishable from Croats, followed by Serbs. Just to make it clear.
It isn't related to topic anyway.
Their I2a was of dinaric variety, so it's obvious it was assimilated along the way. Nothing strange for the steppe peoples, they were open to intermarry and assimilate other tribes since dawn of time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
:)
She really believs in those bullshits, so let her. Turks always want to people make fun of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
But Magyars were originally not steppe people but forest zone people - like all other Finno-Ugric groups. They later moved to the steppe. So maybe their I2a-Din came from the forest zone of Russia, Belarus and Northern Ukraine, just like Slavic I2a-Din most probably did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Of course in the steppe Magyars interacted with Turkic and Iranic groups, as shown by loanwords in Hungarian language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
The Magyars were steppe peoples everytime.
proto-Magyars of cherkaskul culture: open steppe
ancient magyars of Sargat culture: forest steppe
early medieval magyars of Kusnarenkovo culture: forest steppe
medieval Magyars of Subbotci culture: open steppe
Adrienne Kormendy in her 2014 article for Polish readers wrote that Magyars originated in non-steppe areas and later migrated south to the steppe.Quote:
Originally Posted by blogen
Everybody has Turkic origin, right? Maybe you will be satisfied then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buusra
Yeah, I also read the same in book about Hungarian history written by Hungarian member of Academy. It states proto-Magyars originated in forest of Urals/western Siberia where they were finshemen and hunters, and moved to steppe later, where they fist interacted with Iranic groups in fact, and lastly with Turks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
From same book (translated to English) Stears already posted it in another thread.
Search for the oldest urheimat of the people who are ancestors of the Hungarians leads us on the border of Europe and Asia, so-called Uralic homeland. Based on the linguistic opinion, area of western Siberia and northern part of the Ural mountains. However, many archeologists believe that the real and original homeland of the Uralic people existed in Europe, streaching from the shores of Baltic sea to the Urals.
Uralic people spoke their common tongue until 4000 BC, when they started to split to smaller ethno-cultural and linguistic communities. As we can see on the rock paintings from the Urals, that time they were still paleolithic hunters and gatherers. Hungarian words for hunting and fishing belong to the oldest substrate of Uralic languages.
Around 3000 BC, Uralic languages split to two main branches: Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic. At that time, despite they were still hunters and gatherers, Finno-Ugric peoples (and the ancestors of Hungarians among them) were already using neolithic tools. Most important supstrate in modern Hungarian language is Finno-Ugric beyond any doubt: it contains only 1000 written words, but 60% (in written documents up to 80% percent) of complex words which are of Finno-Ugric origin. They describe family relations, seasons of the year and natural phenomenons (the sky, the snow, the clouds) as well as basic nouns (living, drinking, eating, standing, going, giving etc.)
Hungarian tribes were well prepared for transition to the nomadic way of life when they found themself in the steppe around 2000 BC. It was also time when the Ugric community split. To escape drought caused by high temperatures, Voguls and Ostyaks returned to forests up north and to the hunter gatherer lifestyle. At the same time proto-Hungarians remained in the steppe, adopting to new evironment. Finno-Ugric connection was now ended, but the linguistic link survived as well as certain elements of the comparative belief system-which is, considering the circumstances, quite miraculous.
Comparative ethnography has found several traditions among village communities inside of the Carpathian Basin which are identical or unusualy similar to the traditions we find among Finno-Ugric peoples: idea about the ''tree that reaches to heavens'' (which connects earthly world and the undergound with heavenly realm), the concept of ''double soul'' or the specific nature of shamanism.
Almost everything which will be spoken about the next millenium and history of Hungarian ancestors is in realm of guessing, and not confirmed facts.
After transition to nomadic way of life, perhaps of the area between Ural river and Aral sea, during first millenium BC, Hungarians were under strong influence of the neighbouring Iranic tribes, Schytians and Sarmatians. To them they probably owe use of iron, and the fact that Hungarian word for sword is of Iranic origin, is symbolic witness for nomadic warlike spirit. However, we cannot estimate the exact time when the Hungarian tribes have left south siberian vast lands and moved to their new European homeland, east from the big curve of the Volga river. This area, known as Baskiria, and the traveling monks from 13th century, like the Hungarian dominican Julian, called it Magna Hungaria.
Perhaps around 1000 BC, Hungarians wandered there togheder with Iranic tribes, but this movement could also happen between 350-400 AD, as a result of great chaos caused by Huns, or even later, around 550 AD, as result of the migrations of the Turkic tribes.
Even after that many well established facts need to be taken with reserve. There is no doubt that the dominant folk and culture of the steppe during these centuries was Turkic, and non-Turkic peoples like the Alans or the Magyars came under their strong influence (which was caused by long co-existance and mutual contacts). Economic and cultural changes which happened at that time can be proved by around 300 words of Turkic origin that made it to Hungarian vocabulary. Even the political institutions, like the dual administration, or spliting of power by spiritual and military leaders, if not exclusively Turkic, are typical for them. Organisation of tribes to the military units is also Turkic (Bulgar) influence that Hungarians received, just like the use of armor and stirrup.
This is the result of the several centuries of co-existance in steppe of the Hungarians and Turks.