Can't say they're so extremely diverse and heterogeneous. Most of that could be chalked up to individual variation (as we all know even siblings don't get identical percentages). So "the Croatian question" is a bit too hyped up in my opinion.
Printable View
Can't say they're so extremely diverse and heterogeneous. Most of that could be chalked up to individual variation (as we all know even siblings don't get identical percentages). So "the Croatian question" is a bit too hyped up in my opinion.
and here are weighted averages by country and a Croat average:
. North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_Afr Sub-Saharan Croat_Croatia 28.40 32.86 14.87 7.84 12.09 1.44 0.43 0.31 0.56 0.57 0.42 0.10 0.11 Croat_B&H 26.13 32.36 15.57 8.35 13.61 1.56 0.63 0.29 0.48 0.46 0.35 0.07 0.09 Croat 28.03 32.78 14.98 7.92 12.34 1.46 0.46 0.31 0.55 0.55 0.41 0.10 0.11
The Croat_Croatia average is 36% Kajkavian (Zagorje, Central Croatia and Gorski Kotar) and 64% Shtokavian-Chakavian, because around WWI 36% Croats spoke Kajkavian.
The Croat average is around 85% Croatia and 15% B&H, based on the numbers before WW2.
For Bosnia and Herzegovina i couldn't find any ethnicity statistics by 2 or 3 main regions (Bosnia, Herzegovina, Krajina) so i just averaged the 3 regions, for now.
Fantastic job Vbnethkio!
I would like to send these to Lukasz, if that is okay for you.
of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Est.1992
West Bosnia is Tropolje + 1 Banja Luka Croat
Code:Croat_B&H_Bosnia,27.52,32.18,15.42,7.12,13.80,1.50,0.64,0.29,0.62,0.30,0.43,0.07,0.12
Croat_B&H_Herzegovina,24.67,32.93,15.61,8.62,14.05,1.48,0.72,0.19,0.45,0.60,0.41,0.03,0.07
Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia,26.20,31.95,15.68,9.32,12.99,1.71,0.53,0.37,0.37,0.48,0.21,0.11,0.07
Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia,26.19,31.56,16.05,8.45,13.66,1.57,0.49,0.19,0.59,0.53,0.37,0.20,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar,31.53,32.48,14.46,7.52,10.28,1.15,0.62,0.29,0.53,0.55,0.31,0.14,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje,31.65,34.32,13.07,7.78,8.75,1.54,0.74,0.55,0.29,0.82,0.23,0.09,0.16
Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner,26.02,32.70,15.67,7.51,14.51,1.76,0.19,0.46,0.21,0.38,0.51,0.07,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj,26.92,32.68,15.74,7.65,13.07,1.54,0.31,0.25,0.54,0.54,0.52,0.14,0.09
Croat_Croatia_Slavonia,28.33,32.94,13.58,8.45,12.75,1.27,0.05,0.24,1.29,0.73,0.34,0.02,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Central,30.20,33.91,14.98,7.32,9.69,1.11,0.84,0.23,0.35,0.44,0.66,0.05,0.28
Croat_Croatia,28.40,32.86,14.87,7.84,12.09,1.44,0.43,0.31,0.56,0.57,0.42,0.10,0.11
Croat_B&H,26.13,32.36,15.57,8.35,13.61,1.56,0.63,0.29,0.48,0.46,0.35,0.07,0.09
Croat,28.03,32.78,14.98,7.92,12.34,1.46,0.46,0.31,0.55,0.55,0.41,0.10,0.11
Thank you very much, really appreciated.
Yes, adding in progress:)Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
What I noticed is pretty even amount of Slavic (Baltic) score in all regions with pretty small 1-2% variation. Much bigger difference is in north atlantic and med input.
Northern half of Croatia has visibly more N.Atlantic and less Med input compared to southerners. This can be reason for difference in pigmentation too.
minimum and maximum values:
North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_Afr Sub-Saharan 19.74 22.51 9.26 3.12 4.78 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36.93 40.46 21.2 12.92 19.05 5.57 4.17 1.59 2.03 1.71 1.65 1.18 1.01
North_Atlantic- the lowest in Herzegovina and the Dalmatian Hinterland, highest in Gorski Kotar.
Baltic - lowest, 22-24, in a Dalmatian and an Istrian who have a strong North Italian or Illyrian shift, the Highest, 39-40 in an Istrian and a Kvarner+Dalmatian result. So, Istrians have a huge range, but they average out somewhere near Serbs and South Croats.
West Med, East_Med, Red_Sea- the highest in Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Istria, the lowest in Zagorje and Gorski Kotar.
West_Asian, South_Asian, East_Asian, Siberian, Amerindian, Oceanian- seem randomly distributed.
22-24% Baltic in ethnic Croats?
yes, remember this result:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...dmatch-results
Yes, such results also can appear in Istria. Janjevci also have low Baltic but that must be because of mixing with Catholic Albanians.
So that is recent Italian and Albanian ancestry?
That man has no recent foreign ancestry and doesn't match any Italians or Albanians. His wife who is from the same island has an opposite component ratio, which is really odd, but that's just the way things are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
These samples from Istria and Dalmatian island can be Illyrian remnants or Venetian influence, not sure. Their surnames are native for long time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
But such people are rare
Wouldn't the Banja Luka Croat be part of the "Croat_B&H_Bosnia" average with "Croat_B&H_Tropolje" being its own average? Which regions of Bosnia are the Bosnian Croat samples from?Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Croat_B&H_Bosnia is proper Bosnia, and West Bosnia is Tropolje and Bosnian Krajina, these regions used to be a part of Croatia in the middle ages, and they have some ties to Chakavian Croats. But the components turned out to be pretty similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
Distance to: Feiichy_Father
2.39046021 Croat
2.39685210 Croat_Croatia
3.00935209 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
3.04886864 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
3.22494021 Hungarian_Alfold
3.22899365 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
3.43129713 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
3.56393041 Croat_B&H
3.60272119 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
3.76193260 Hungarian
3.82510131 Moldova_North
3.90891289 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
4.05362259 Slovenian
4.09924495 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.25617199 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
4.32447685 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.32868340 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.41056686 Serb_B&H
4.48023785 Hungarian_Budapest
4.56132656 Bosniak
4.71285448 Hungarian_Szekely
4.88577145 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.89108972 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.89438454 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
4.96456443 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
Distance to: Feiichy
4.57193613 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.58251023 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.67939706 Hungarian_Budapest
4.75888632 Slovenian
4.83755382 Hungarian
4.88665530 Croat_Croatia
4.90199106 Hungarian_Alfold
5.06918139 Croat
5.30598718 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.35612192 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.41770247 Moldova_North
5.54846826 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.72277031 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
5.88796550 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.06864894 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.47639560 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.47702864 Croat_B&H
6.59247298 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.68619473 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.75591943 Hungarian_Szekely
6.79453457 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
7.05248638 Hungarian_Northern
7.20816204 Serb_B&H
7.36825624 Bosniak
7.52299825 Bosniak_Sarajevo
Distance to: Stears
4.53681606 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
4.88169028 Moldova_North
5.11624863 Croat_Croatia
5.17453380 Croat
5.19578764 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.28762388 Hungarian_Alfold
5.29694720 Hungarian
5.46409187 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
5.57366535 Hungarian_Budapest
5.77534415 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
5.81944896 Hungarian_Szekely
5.90746985 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.00194968 Croat_Croatia_Central
6.07785324 Croat_B&H
6.14769519 Slovenian
6.17779087 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.18825212 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.23660966 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.23872391 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.25715840 Hungarian_Csango
6.32157417 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
6.39411448 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.41018720 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.68739112 Bosniak
6.92913415 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
My father has really low distance, he is really totally typical as I said.
Distance to: Feiichy_Mother
4.12447572 Croat_Croatia
4.17258680 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.21607638 Croat
4.49534766 Hungarian
4.51794201 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
4.54173492 Slovenian
4.56745521 Hungarian_Alfold
4.58422294 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.59786283 Hungarian_Budapest
4.64130370 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.66962525 Moldova_North
4.89624346 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.06069165 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
5.23648737 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.30737462 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.34838293 Croat_B&H
5.42142048 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
5.42372746 Hungarian_Szekely
5.49634424 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
5.78504970 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.80521317 Serb_B&H
5.95723929 Bosniak
5.98903164 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
6.14971783 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.15294239 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
Hungarian friend
Distance to: Blanka
5.71138822 Hungarian_Northern
5.98705203 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.13484264 Hungarian
6.20278969 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
6.32041927 Hungarian_Budapest
6.39176359 Slovenian
6.53045329 Hungarian_Alfold
6.58059268 Croat_Croatia_Central
6.64959397 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
7.07675476 Slovak
7.33098220 Czech
7.53270204 Croat_Croatia
7.85788776 Croat
8.04739088 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
8.12427843 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
8.59872084 East_German
8.64211201 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
8.76073627 Austrian
9.42455304 German_east
9.48986301 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
9.50175773 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
9.55523764 Hungarian_Transylvania
9.74090858 Croat_B&H
9.94146367 Moldova_North
10.01104904 Hungarian_Szekely
Distance to: Hrvoje
4.36715010 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.53169943 Hungarian_Budapest
4.65825074 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
4.87966277 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.89602618 Hungarian
5.03910706 Croat_Croatia_Central
5.41980090 Slovenian
5.43707757 Hungarian_Alfold
5.51375553 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.51695568 Croat_Croatia
5.78439279 Croat
6.48189527 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.57380407 Moldova_North
6.74423457 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
6.84136897 Hungarian_Northern
7.09818991 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
7.14953360 Hungarian_Szekely
7.42167771 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
7.44879856 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
7.47845572 Croat_B&H
7.54295035 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
7.67504424 Slovak
7.92062498 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.11539894 Austrian
8.24016990 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
If Banja Luka is important Croat are in Bosnia? On ethnic maps it is mainly Serbian with some Muslim.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
yeah, there isn't a lot of Croats in Bosnian Krajina. Croat_West_Bosnia is a dozen from Livno Croats and 1 from Banja Luka, theat's pretty representative i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukasz
Also from Tomislavgrad, sample provided by Ljubic.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
PCA, courtesy of Vbnethkio
https://i.imgur.com/WlZFew6.png
Northern Istrian sample which already sent to Feiichy. Did it change the Istrian-Kvarner average a bit?
4.08050654 Hungarian_Northern
4.53032145 Hungarian_Alfold
4.58521838 Slovenian
4.76716897 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.81700771 Hungarian
5.14232438 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
5.35430559 Hungarian_Budapest
5.45167842 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.47356374 Croat_Croatia
5.52358756 Slovak
5.72097894 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.76103289 Croat
5.85831034 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
6.19970967 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.48538357 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.78166646 Czech
6.79457872 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
7.39759420 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
7.51623576 Moldova_North
7.56230124 Croat_B&H
8.01921443 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
8.20196318 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
8.39988095 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.52664198 Hungarian_Transylvania
8.60577713 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
At Eurogenes K15 World Map plots at letter "S" of Austrian.
Didn't add it yet, as I am waiting for one Slavonian sample too and maybe it's best to send both to Vbnethkio. Because he will need to update general averages too which is quite complex because it's based on percentage of population which speak 3 major dialects (pred WWs I think) to be most realistic possible :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
If you get any more samples, send them to PM. They will all be added to averages, don't worry.
these samples are currently in the average:Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
https://i.imgur.com/GamgkgA.png
To this you need to add the one above:Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
NIstria,31.10,35.66,14.50,4.52,12.33,0,0,0,1.19,0, 0,0.69,0
new average:Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
Istria&Kvarner,26.65,33.07,15.52,7.14,14.24,1.54,0 .16,0.40,0.33,0.33,0.45,0.15,0.02
Could you update Croat and Croat Croatia average too? Or tell me how to do it so I can too :p it seems bit complex I agree with your method.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
it was based on Kajkavian speakers clustering away from the rest. But now Istria turned out to be quite north plotting too, maybe you should do a new weighed average with diferrent weights for each region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
PM all database (samples i sent you + what you and commonsense or mingle collected) pls. My PC is a mess. I need to know exact sample number to work with aevrages. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
i sent it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
i recommend you average out the results from the same town uploaded by the same email, and treat them as one result. like the kits from Vrdi for example.
What happened to all the regional averages? East is Slavonia? North is Zagorje + Međimurje? Littoral is confusing, is it well Littoral? What happened to Dalmatia then or it includes both Littoral (+Istria?) and the Dalmatian region? The northern and southern Adriatic coast shouldn't be put together. Names are a bit confusing, uncommon for Croatian regions. What is the sample size? New averages:
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13 .91,1.38,0.59,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13
Hey. We decided to decrease number of averages since lot of them were very similar to each other, and that way create more reliable averages with much bigger sample size.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
Divison was proposed by Vbnethkio and I agreed, although I had slightly different idea (my idea was Panonnian, Dinaric and Adriatic)
Litorral (Istria+Kvarner+Lika+Dalmatia) - sample size 48
North (Zagorje+Central+ Gorski kotar) - sample size 41
Bosnia-Herzegovina (Bosnia_proper+West_Bosnia+Herzegovina) - sample size 52
East (Slavonia) - sample size 7
General average is weighted according to percentage of regional populations in total population historically.
Any luck getting 70 Slavonian samples?
I posted it in Vahaduo thread but should be rather here.
She has all 4 grandparents kajkavian Croats
So, her father is from Zlatar, Krapinsko/zagorska županija
Her mother is half from Cestica, on border with Slovenia and half from mursko središče on border with Slovenia and Hungary
Population
North_Atlantic 32.54 Pct
Baltic 33.63 Pct
West_Med 14.34 Pct
West_Asian 6.01 Pct
East_Med 9.51 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.55 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.54 Pct
Oceanian 1.3 Pct
Northeast_African 0.58 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 3.55
2 East_German 5.78
3 Croatian 5.83
4 Austrian 6.17
5 Moldavian 8.24
6 South_Polish 9.03
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.96
8 Serbian 10.09
9 Ukrainian 10.74
10 Polish 12.47
11 West_German 13.7
12 Romanian 14.28
13 North_Swedish 14.88
14 Southwest_Russian 14.97
15 South_Dutch 15
16 North_German 15.23
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.39
18 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.42
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.64
20 Estonian_Polish 16.09
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% Southeast_English @ 2.48
2 60.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.69
3 62.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.7
4 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.75
5 78.9% Croatian + 21.1% Orcadian @ 2.76
6 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Southwest_English @ 2.81
7 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% North_Dutch @ 2.85
8 80.7% Croatian + 19.3% West_Scottish @ 2.89
9 74.9% South_Polish + 25.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.9
10 77.6% Croatian + 22.4% Danish @ 2.91
11 73.1% South_Polish + 26.9% Portuguese @ 2.91
12 74.8% South_Polish + 25.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.92
13 72.7% Croatian + 27.3% West_German @ 2.93
14 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.96
15 63.3% Southwest_Russian + 36.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.97
16 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.97
17 50.3% East_German + 49.7% Croatian @ 2.98
18 51.9% Croatian + 48.1% Austrian @ 2.99
19 76.1% South_Polish + 23.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.03
Reason why Istria&Kvarner was grouped with Lika and Dalmatia was the fact it was not different enough from them, at least based on sample size we have so far.
And it's mostly Istria due to history of southern migration + Italian input which pull it south (although it has very northern/Slavic shifted samples too).
If we had more samples from Kvarner, I think that average would be more distinct from Dalmatia & Lika because Kvarner is more native and received almost no southern migration compared to Istria (except Novi Vinodolski hinterland - Bunjevci). I posted sample from Rijeka recently who is Slovenian like genetically (1/8 German but I include 1/8 foreign admix, that's my upper limit-even without such input he should be Slovenian like)
So, until we get more samples from western Croatia I think Littoral average makes sense, all three averages which made it were similar. (and BiH is pretty similar as well).
Gorski kotar on the other hand is distinct and very central Euro as expected so it was merged into north Croatia togheder with Zarorje, Prigorje, Međimurje, Podravina, wider Zagreb region etc.
My idea was the following: Dinaric (BiH and Lika, because Lika population has lot of ties with BiH Croats, almost same genetics too)
Adriatic (Istria,Kvarner,Dalmatia)
Panonnian(Gorski kotar, Central, Zagorje, Slavonia)
I wanted to camouflage Slavonian average by mergining it into Panonnian because it's weakest average we have - only 7 samples. So put togheder with other northerners it would be much stronger.
But maybe Vbnethkio idea was better, because Slavonians are not the same as Kajkavians - less western Euro input and more eastern, they are more like NE Bosnians).
I'm happy Vbn made these averages for us, I could never do it alone.
It is fine to decrease number of averages as discussed before, but this has been done with some strange reasoning:
1) The naming, Littoral (Primorje) is a separate region, especially in English language, which is rarely or never used in the meaning of Istria, Lika and Dalmatia. This is some strange mixture of medieval and modern appellations. People from diaspora are certainly going to be confused. A more reasonable name would be Adriatic. However, it is confusing to have averages named in a different manner; by cardinal directions (North, East), regional name (Littoral), and country (BiH). It needs only a single and easily understandable style. The averag "_north" obviously needs letter "n" in all caps "N".
2) Only because a sub-regional average is more closer to another it doesn't mean Gk should be grouped with North average, neither is in the continental or Pannonian part of Croatia. Exactly otherwise, considering the geographical proximity Gk should be grouped with Kvarner and Istria, perhaps even with Lika, making a "West" average.
3) Averages should been according to this Mrsic et al. map. According to it we should have "West" or "Littoral" (Istria, Kvarner, Gk, Lika), "North" or "Pannonia" (Central, Zagorje, Medimurje), "East" or "Slavonia" (Slavonia), and "South" or "Dalmatia" (Dalmatia). Of course, fifth average would be "Bosnia-Herzegovina", and we would have a national average for Croats from Croatia and another cumulative for all Croats (I doubt other national averages are done considering samples from foreign countries). To me that's most simple, understandable and of interest to everyone. Can you or Vbn do this instead or at least try to see current results?
No, I still did not hear anything about those Slavonian samples.
I had this map in mind, except I merged Southern and Western into "Littoral", and Northern and Central (and Gorski Kotar) into "North", because they look genetically identical, with the current samples at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP
There is no need to include multiple averages which represent the same genetic cluster, because then they just overflood the oracle.
maybe a map should be included along with the oracle so the users can see the geographic range of each region.
For example Hungarian average takes into consideration also those from neighboring countries, but in a weighted manner based on regional population, so it would be representative of the real numbers of Hungarians and not the number of samples collected. As we know from certain regions you have more or less samples, even if the population of that region can be either much higher or much lower. It surely takes more math and usage of equations, but ultimately it's not super difficult to create weighted national averages.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroLP