"35%-55% Ashkenazis are of European Descent"

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Originally Posted by Albion

Damn, Jews are confusing. :rolleyes:

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Only if you LET them confuse you... ;)

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It shows the whole Israel thing is probably a lie as far as the Ashkenazi are concerned, they must be largely Khazar converts.

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Not the first time I've seen you repeating this garbage. :tsk:

Comrade, the Khazars were a Turko-Caucasian group, and looked probably something like modern Turkmen.
http://www.sfnblog.com/industry_tren...nPresident.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/ro...kmen-train.jpg

Deriving our modern Ashkenazim from them, when the former are a bunch of pallid hook-nosed garbled-German-speaking city-folk is just retarded.

Or can you picture Woody Allen and Boris Berezovski riding ponies across the steppe? :coffee:

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Originally Posted by Thunor

I mostly agree with Anachronistic about teh J00s. They're at the blurry limit between European and Semitic, and some are more of the former while others are more of the latter. The majority of Ashkenazim can pass as white in the racial sense. Are they culturally European? That's up for debate.


Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.

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The 'walk like a duck/talk like a duck'-minded people tend to accept non-practicing Ashkenazis as white Europeans.

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Originally Posted by Osweo

Or can you picture Woody Allen and Boris Berezovski riding ponies across the steppe? :coffee:

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http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/205014-MrEd.jpg

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cannot BE a fraction

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Would you be so kind as to remind me of the fractions at play in yourself? I thought you were at least 3/4 Jewish, no?

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Originally Posted by Osweo

Only if you LET them confuse you... ;)

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If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.

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Originally Posted by Thunor

(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)

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Racially questionable by what standard? Sicilians are ethnic Europeans, how they look is irrelevant. Any look that is found in Sicily is part of natural European diversity and I, for one, fail to see the problem with that.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.

I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.

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It is fine, and don't be too self-conscious here. We are glad you are proud of your European descent, and willing to attempt to preserve truly and authentically European cultures, ethnicties, and languages. It is good that you stand only with Europe, and not with anything foreign, and for that your Jewish heritage can be overlooked in part.


That said I do not think I could overlook any other people with partial Non-Indo-European ancestry when it comes to preserving European ancestry. I would not accept a pure Jew or majority Jewish person who wishes to protect and preserve the European identity, because this is unnatural and contradictory with their genetic nature.


But protecting the European identity means preserving in all of its aspects whether it be speaking the language, practicing the modes of conducts, and self-consciously embracing the mentality. Most importantly this mode of protecting the European identity should be done by someone of Indo-European background, because protecting these three modes includes protecting and preserving the Indo-European background from foreign genetic admixture.


This can only be done by people who are of a pure genetic European background, and thus it seems appropriate that people are more closely of genetic European background to want to protect and preserve the other three modes of European identity.


That said certain exceptions can be made, as Goerring's Green laws showed us, and I am more than glad to have you here. We need more educated, charming, and well-behaved individuals to join in the cause, but primarily on the basis they qualify to a great extent on the four modes of European identity.


I just think that it is unnecessary to equate Ashkernazis with Europeans, even if they have partial ancestry, and its not right in the name of the preservation of the European identity to negate their Jewish component or to deny it.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.

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I thought you had gone to bed?

Jew trick number one, apparently. :coffee:

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Originally Posted by Osweo

Would you be so kind as to remind me of the fractions at play in yourself? I thought you were at least 3/4 Jewish, no?

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There's no point. I'm tired of running around in circles with you. We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Our stance on who is European and who is not is different, and that's ok.

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Originally Posted by GeistFaust

They still are Non-Indo-European even though they believe in creeds, practice traditions, and speak a code of communication which coincides and has arisen out of Indo-European peoples.

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You does seem to attach alot of importance to Indo-Europeaness but it comes out Jews are actually closer to Europeans genetically speaking than Persians or Armenians are. It's just that Jews are not a pure bunch composed of pure Semites as described in the racialist books of the 19th which are usually politically biased. Modern Jews are mixed with Mediterranean-European , Caucasian , and whatsoever blood.

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Originally Posted by Beorn

I thought you had gone to bed?

Jew trick number one, apparently. :coffee:

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You really like that snarky coffee emoticon.

I'm awake because I have a baby who is teething. I went upstairs, brushed my teeth, and then he decided it was playtime.

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Originally Posted by Hess

Racially questionable by what standard? Sicilians are ethnic Europeans, how they look is irrelevant. Any look that is found in Sicily is part of natural European diversity and I, for one, fail to see the problem with that.

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Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

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Originally Posted by Anachronistic

Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

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That dude can fit in Arabia from Jordan to Yemen honestly. Sicily has very large amount of Arabian admix, from the Central Arabian tribes that settled. Read the Arabian epics which describes the movement into the island.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

You really like that snarky coffee emoticon.

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It serves my needs as and when :D

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Originally Posted by Mercury

I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

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LOL! Seriously? Are you speaking politically or racially?

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

You does seem to attach alot of importance to Indo-Europeaness but it comes out Jews are actually closer to Europeans genetically speaking than are Persians or Armenians. It's just that Jews are not a pure bunch composed of pure Semites described in the racialist books of the 19th which are usually politically biased. Modern Jews are mixed with Mediterranean European , Caucasian , and whatsoever blood.

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It should makes sense that I put a lot of emphasis on the European identity in order to qualify as truly European. Its like saying that I need to depend on 2 1s or a 2 and a 0 to make a 2 when adding in mathematics. It would be nonsensical, contradictory, and downright moronic to say otherwise.

Ashkernazi and Sephardic Jews are grouped closer to Mediterranean Europeans, because they have European ancestry. If we are speaking about all variants of Jews then you would be certainly wrong with your assertion that they group with Mediterranean Europeans.


Jews are not merely limited just to the Ashkernazis and Sephardic peoples, and those Ashkernazis and Sephardics are on average a majority of Jewish bloodlines. Therefore they can not be considered Indo-European, and if so only in part. The argument ends here, because if it goes any further there will be a crass defiance of pure logic.

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Originally Posted by Anachronistic

Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

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"wog" is a purely subjective word that has different meanings for different people. Any native European is automatically part of European diversity, regardless of how he "swarthy" he is.

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Originally Posted by GeistFaust

It is fine, and don't be too self-conscious here. We are glad you are proud of your European descent, and willing to attempt to preserve truly and authentically European cultures, ethnicties, and languages. It is good that you stand only with Europe, and not with anything foreign, and for that your Jewish heritage can be overlooked in part.


That said I do not think I could overlook any other people with partial Non-Indo-European ancestry when it comes to preserving European ancestry. I would not accept a pure Jew or majority Jewish person who wishes to protect and preserve the European identity, because this is unnatural and contradictory with their genetic nature.


But protecting the European identity means preserving in all of its aspects whether it be speaking the language, practicing the modes of conducts, and self-consciously embracing the mentality. Most importantly this mode of protecting the European identity should be done by someone of Indo-European background, because protecting these three modes includes protecting and preserving the Indo-European background from foreign genetic admixture.


This can only be done by people who are of a pure genetic European background, and thus it seems appropriate that people are more closely of genetic European background to want to protect and preserve the other three modes of European identity.


That said certain exceptions can be made, as Goerring's Green laws showed us, and I am more than glad to have you here. We need more educated, charming, and well-behaved individuals to join in the cause, but primarily on the basis they qualify to a great extent on the four modes of European identity.


I just think that it is unnecessary to equate Ashkernazis with Europeans, even if they have partial ancestry, and its not right in the name of the preservation of the European identity to negate their Jewish component or to deny it.

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Cheers, Geist. I think my more lax stance on who is/isn't white/European stems from the fact that my parents aren't of the same nationality, and that I was not born in either of their native countries.
I see secular Ashkenazi Jews who are indistinguishable from Gentiles as 'ok' for the cause because they are, as I said, indistinguishable. My personal view is that if they are not accepted, the cause might be losing valuable assets. A blonde haired blue eyed secular Ashkenazi can secure blonde hair and blue eyes just as well as a blonde haired blue eyed gentile.

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European? I bet no. But I think it has a history behind.

I could get in mind some peoples in Europe who do not fall some criteras like Magyars (Hungarians) who speak a language of foreign origin but history and geno-phenotype (it's obvious Hungarians are European genetically) of Hungary has made it typically Europe in a large Indo-European-speaking lake.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European?

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Of course not.

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Originally Posted by Ausência Forçada

Of course not.

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Gypsies are Indo-European speakers originally , while Finns or Magyars aren't;) Ironic.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.

I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.

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The last part is great by the way, as a preservationist I naturally liked that last bit.
But what is your opinion about most Jews in Europe? Do they think like you or would they jump ship?
The Israelis don't seem to care who gets in their way though, I doubt they'd be willing to stand with Europe.

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Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.

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And Cypriots? What do your eyes tell you about them? All I have is TV and internet, I've never been to the place and never given it much attention.

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Only if you LET them confuse you...

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I need to put the issue to rest in my mind at least.

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Not the first time I've seen you repeating this garbage.

Comrade, the Khazars were a Turko-Caucasian group, and looked probably something like modern Turkmen.

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Fine, "the people who were occupied by the Khazar elite" then. Better? In that case they'd be North Caucasian peoples and perhaps a few relict nomads which would explain their closeness to Georgians.

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are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe

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Don't understand that one. Surely if anything we'd be used to wipe out Muslims such as the trouble with Iran.
Then again there's a few Jews who do advocate multiculturalism, you cannot help but wonder why.

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I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

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Only because we like being alternative and pissing off the continentals. ;)

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do yo guys consider Gypsies as European? I bet no. But I think it has a history behind. I could get in mind several peoples in Europe who do not fall some criteras like Magyars (Hungarians) who speak a language of foreign origin.

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Unlike Jews and Hungarians, there is little to debate about Roma. They're North Indians who kept to themselves, end of story.

Some are going to call me out on this, but it's unfair to say Jews (Sephardis and Ashkenazis) are not European but to include Sicilians, Maltese, and Cypriots if genetics are the argument for why Jews aren't European. Dodecad Oracle places Sicilians/South Italians as closer genetically to Sephardis than to Greeks. Jews came from Israel into Europe a fully Semitic people, picking up European genes as they went along. Sicilians and Maltese likely started out Paleolithic European but then received Phoenician, Carthaginian, Moorish, even Assyrian (I think a user on here said this) influences to the point that today they cluster with the Jews side by side.

As for culture, compare the folk dances, music, etc of some Balkan nations to nearby West Asian ones and you'll begin to see connections. So if using culture as to why Jews are not European, consider this too!

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European?

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Apply the logic that I used for Jews in the last post, and you get basically a similar answer. The only difference is Gypsies have made even less of an effort to integrate in a cultural manner with Europeans.


They have made far less contributions and advancements that I would find it much more repulsive to consider them any more European than Jews who have partial European ancestry.

I would say that that after Jews and Asians the amount of European identity that exists in a person is negated in proportion to the degree of genetic, linguistic, and cultural aspects which they might possess.

A "European" with 1/8th black can not be considered European regardless of how strong their linguistic or cultural connection is. This might sound like a subjective definition which is based off of "prejudice" and "bias", but it is based off of hard core fact.


At least some Jews have been in Europe for a longer period of time, they have made more contributions than Blacks, Gypsies, and other peoples. The same could be said about Asians to a certain extent, but they have no traditional presence in Europe, and have remained largely isolated from Europe.

Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

Gypsies are Indo-European speakers originally , while Finns or Magyars aren't;) Ironic.

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Indo-European is just a language family. IE includes Iranian and Indian peoples, Finno-Ugric includes the Siberian peoples. Both language families are used by Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

The fact that Gypsies use an IE language is trivial, so do Negroids in the Congo but we don;t call them European.

Hungarians are and Finnic peoples are European for a number of reasons, it isn;t based on languages alone. Hungarian origins lie with the Slavs who preceded them in Pannonia anyway, the steppe origin was of a small elite.

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Originally Posted by GeistFaust

A "European" with 1/8th black can not be considered European regardless of how strong their linguistic or cultural connection is. This might sound like a subjective definition which is based off of "prejudice" and "bias", but it is based off of hard core fact.

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Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...

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Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.

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Seriously, You'd only consider someone with less than 1/8 Jewish ancestry as European? That is very weird. I don't follow this logic GeistFraust , or perhaps you are confusing yourself as well.

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Originally Posted by Albion

The last part is great by the way, as a prservationist I naturally liked that last bit.

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What are you preserving then? Shall we let gung-ho Africans into the fray?

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Originally Posted by Clementina

Some are going to call me out on this, but it's unfair to say Jews (Sephardis and Ashkenazis) are not European but to include Sicilians, Maltese, and Cypriots if genetics are the argument for why Jews aren't European.

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I don't think I've said any of the sort, but others may wish to put their tuppence worth in. :)

In fairness, the difference is a cultural similarity and religious ideal.

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Originally Posted by Anachronistic

To be honest, my knowledge about Cypriots is limited.

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Mine as well. The opinions of Greek forum members on the Cypriots seemed very varied.

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You mean like him:
http://www.krisvdv.net/pixelpost/ima..._man_sigar.jpg

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That is one grotesque half-Arab brownskin. The majority of Italians are obviously not as swarthy as him, although I've seen several racially dubious Sicilians in my days. A result of African genetic drift, no doubt.

This ties in with my earlier question - how mixed do you have to be, to get considered a non-European? I guess it varies from person to person.

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Originally Posted by Hess

Any native European is automatically part of European diversity, regardless of how he "swarthy" he is.

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That guy on the picture is clearly not a part of European diversity. It doesn't matter if the negroid blood came from his parents, or from several centuries ago.

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Originally Posted by Albion

The last part is great by the way, as a prservationist I naturally liked that last bit.
But what is your opinion about most Jews in Europe? Do they think like you or would they jump ship?
The Israelis don't seem to care who gets in their way though, I doubt they'd be willing to stand with Europe.



Don't understand that one. Surely if anything we'd be used to wipe out Muslims such as the trouble with Iran.
Then again there's a few Jews who do advocate multiculturalism, you cannot help but wonder why.

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To answer your first questions: it really depends on the individual. There is so much grey area, it's ridiculous. Many European Jews think like me, many are clueless, and some (mainly the super religious) are distrusting of everyone aside from others like them (e.i. other super religious Jews). Generally, those who are not religious and don't identify as European move to Israel. That tends to be the catalyst.

Israelis love Europe. Israeli culture is quite Westernised, as it was founded by European Jews. Having been to Israel before, I can say confidently that Israel would stand by Europe in a heartbeat against Islam.

Liberal Jews, be they religious or not, tend to support multiculturalism. But I tend to find that all liberals support multiculturalism. I personally have not met one single Jewish person who supports Muslim immigration to Europe.

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Originally Posted by Albion

Indo-European is just a language family. IE includes Iranian and Indian peoples, Finno-Ugric includes the Siberian peoples. Both language families are used by Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

The fact that Gypsies use an IE language is trivial, so do Negroids in the Congo but we don;t call them European.

Hungarians are and Finnic peoples are European for a number of reasons, it isn;t based on languages alone. Hungarian origins lie with the Slavs who preceded them in Pannonia anyway, the steppe origin was of a small elite.

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Agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

Cheers, Geist. I think my more lax stance on who is/isn't white/European stems from the fact that my parents aren't of the same nationality, and that I was not born in either of their native countries.
I see secular Ashkenazi Jews who are indistinguishable from Gentiles as 'ok' for the cause because they are, as I said, indistinguishable. My personal view is that if they are not accepted, the cause might be losing valuable assets. A blonde haired blue eyed secular Ashkenazi can secure blonde hair and blue eyes just as well as a blonde haired blue eyed gentile.

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Yes, but a lax stance is only going to put us in a deeper ditch. We need people who will be hardcore, and even chauvinistic about European identity in order to truly protect the true European identity. You have to define what is indistinguishable from Ashkernazi Jews and Gentiles before you squeeze them into the same category.


If its merely cultural then I must say nein to the fact they are indistinguishable. If its because of phenotype, hair color, or eye color than I must say nein in part, because there are Non-European people with a phenotype that is pseudo-European looking. There are Non-European people with a blonde hair color or blue eye color, although this is relatively rare.


If you want to say Ashkernazi Jews and Europeans are indistinguishable based on a few aspects or a partial degree of their identity then you are cherry picking here. This is a fallacious use of logic to support an agenda or ideology, but it sits on shanty grounds with no firm intrinsic support.


If you want to say Ashkernazi Jews and Europeans are indistinguishable based on all the factors there are to calculate then there is no reason to admit or affirm the term Ashkernazi and European as disjunctive terms in meaning. Therefore a person of who is of partial Ashkernazi descent or who practices or believes in Ashkernazi traditions or mentalities can not be considered truly and wholly European.

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Originally Posted by Clementina

As for culture, compare the folk dances, music, etc of some Balkan nations to nearby West Asian ones and you'll begin to see connections. So if using culture as to why Jews are not European, consider this too!

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Balkans got large portions of J , E , G haplogroups of the Y chromosome and the recent genetic discovers in France and Spain make us think that these kinds of haplogroups made their expansion before R1b. A continuation of the gradual human settlements from West Asia basically.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...


Seriously, You'd only consider someone with less than 1/8 Jewish ancestry as European? That is very weird. I don't follow this logic GeistFraust , or perhaps you are confusing yourself as well.

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If that guy who is 1/8th black then I consider him black in relation to the one drop rule as applied by the Jim Crow's Law. There are other historical factors I could include in this analysis as well such as the inferiority of black genetics, modes of conduct, language, and mentality.


Plus they have not had a duration of existence in European countries whatsoever. I am not confusing myself, I just have a complicated and historically informed system of calculating who qualifies as what based on a certain list of criteria.


The politically correct and liberal infused mind, which appears to be a commonality in the Western world can not grasp such logic, because they have a narrow understanding of the cold hard facts, which vary from situation to situation.

Keep in mind I was not saying Ashkenazis or Sephardis are necessarily European but rather that we can't, and should not, be hypocritical with who we consider European and who we do not. If genetics are the determining factor, we must also exclude groups of genetic similarity to Jews. If it's culture, then some Balkan countries who are more recently West Asian influenced than are Jews should be considered as well.

The best argument I can use is that the Jewish identity formed in the Levant and not Europe, and that simple fact makes them a Middle Eastern group who have undergone Europeanization over time.

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Originally Posted by GeistFaust

Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.

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You are therefore denying that the following are European?

http://www.jewishmag.com/158mag/hitl...s/5864a0a4.jpg

http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-im...borderless.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hard_Rogge.jpg

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

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Originally Posted by Nglund

You are therefore denying that the following are European?

http://www.jewishmag.com/158mag/hitl...s/5864a0a4.jpg

http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-im...borderless.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hard_Rogge.jpg

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

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With Jews and Asians, but especially Jews, I would be willing to classify them as partial Europeans.

They are not truly European though in any sense of what it means to be one.

They are half-breeds and race-mixed, and there is no more that needs to be said.

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Originally Posted by PetiteParisienne

If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.

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HALT!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eFsJONTMNy...nquisition.jpg
Gentlemen, sounds like a confession to me! Prepare the Auto da Fe!

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Originally Posted by Mercury

I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

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Nonsense.
http://ssau.net/shop/images/SSZVE8204.jpg

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William Wyndham Grenville, 1st Baron Grenville PC, PC (Ire) (25 October 1759 – 12 January 1834) was a British Whig statesman. He served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1806 to 1807 as head of the Ministry of All the Talents.\
See here;
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1874357
for his European notions.

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Originally Posted by Portukalos

Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...

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Someone who is thought 1/8th non-European.

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Originally Posted by Clementina

Keep in mind I was not saying Ashkenazis or Sephardis are necessarily European but rather that we can't, and should not, be hypocritical with who we consider European and who we do not. If genetics are the determining factor, we must also exclude groups of genetic similarity to Jews. If it's culture, then some Balkan countries who are more recently West Asian influenced than are Jews should be considered as well.

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Why? Should we be silent as others are vocal?

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Originally Posted by Nglund

You are therefore denying that the following are European?
All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

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Yep! You declared their non-European ancestry. It kinda implies something here.

Another study worth reading.

http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

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Originally Posted by Osweo

HALT!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eFsJONTMNy...nquisition.jpg
Gentlemen, sounds like a confession to me! Prepare the Auto da Fe!



Nonsense.
http://ssau.net/shop/images/SSZVE8204.jpg

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A confession? Or rather just tired of hearing ghost stories.