Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

This thread is so full of false data, many can't even differentiate between different I2a clades, yet they feel like they can speak on subject with authority.
Just to get grasp of how big distance is: northern I2a1a split from Sardinian I2a1a 17.000+ years ago, let alone I2a1b here, which split even earlier.

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Originally Posted by Dick

I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs. Could be the same reason as to why E-v13 is more common with albanians. They fucked like rabbits and had 10+ kids per family since the middle ages. What else are you gonna do in the mountans other than fuck and eat.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...DNA.shtml#I2a1

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The reason why I2a1b is more common on western Balkans than among northern Slavs is because it got Slavicized after Slavic ethnogenesis. In case it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis, it would be evenly distributed. So there are two possibilites: either it got linguistically Slavicized before, or after coming to Balkans. Geographic distribution of I2a1b and R1a in Yugoslavia (more I2a1b in infertile, mountainous areas, while R1a is dominant in plains) suggests second scenario.
BTW that Eupedia article is utterly outdated and nonsensical. There was no I2a1b in SE Europe in Neolithic. It's calculated TMRCA and place of origin don't fit in it, neither do ancient DNA findings, I2a1b-(M423) being found predominantly in northern Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. It all points out to the fact that it came somewhere during Migration Era (5th-6th century).

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

Why would I bother sifting through the thread to find it when I knew you could do it for me? It's 16.5%. See, you do the menial tasks, I do the thinking. That's how we cooperate.

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can you quote from the study? Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

can you quote from the study? Thanks in advance.

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I can't view it because you need some program to open up the files with the figures. Trojet has it, though.

To all the guys at Foleja or Albanian bloodlines project I just upgraded to Family finder

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

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Originally Posted by kuqezi

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

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When happened this migration of Albanians from North to South Albania? And how did this Albanians cleansed this slavs? What the historical records say about this?

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

I can't view it because you need some program to open up the files with the figures. Trojet has it, though.

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So, basically you are telling me that this retard of your friends, Scholarios has not any idea about the percentage of this famous I2a when he posted this study in this thread with the title: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania.
Great. I have no doubt that he is an retard troll.

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Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

It's only 40 samples on average for each population in that haplomap.

I'll be generous and state 500+ samples atleast or bullshit. Most of those Vlachs tested were prbably related or from the same villages which provided sample bias.

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Samples are low but still indicative what the Vlahs/Aromanians of southern Albania are, and honestly it would be impossible now days to get a bigger sample because in majority they have disintegrated and assimilated. To my opinion they are not the source of I2a. What's interesting though they differ from other Vlah groups and seem to be more similar to us on regards to J2b2 (PH1751?) and R1b-BY611 - perhaps latinized local Illyrians? That would be my best guess.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

So, basically you are telling me that this retard of your friends, Scholarios has not any idea about the percentage of this famous I2a when he posted this study in this thread with the title: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania.
Great. I have no doubt that he is an retard troll.

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No, I am telling you that you aren't very good at counting.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

No, I am telling you you aren't very good at counting.

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And why you didn`t this countings?