Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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Originally Posted by kuqezi

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

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The other simple explanation would be what I have suggested some pages on this thread, which is most likely what happened to my opinion going by the evidence we currently poses lingustically and genetically: the assimilated body of Slavs wasn't that large to begin with but only expanded later as Albanians. They simply were not that significant to alter their autosomal profile. I would like to see some of their Family Finder profiles though just to see where they stand in comparison to Ghegs because as you mentioned judging by their 23andme profiles they don't differ much from us, some are even identical to us.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

Looks like the movie Independence Day. Any scientific paper who prove this? Because there are many questions.

Insignificant, only in Opar, read here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...ka#post4269557

We have discussed here about this maps of Hammond:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4173569
Let me quote here Hammond:
The problem i hope to deal with is how did the Albanians get from this remote part of Kurvelesh down to all parts of Greek peninsula and indeed the greek islands....
So according to Hammond this people arrived from Kurvelesh, not from Kelmendi. Well, a little bit strange this Hammond.
Anyway, at least someone with a theory. After many threads and 55 pages in this thread, Scholarios is without a theory.

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From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.

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Originally Posted by kuqezi

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.

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True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

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Originally Posted by kuqezi

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.

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This is genetic, a genetic theory based on few hundreds persons tested following a methodology that nobody here explain. We were discussing history.

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Originally Posted by Skerdilaid

The other simple explanation would be what I have suggested some pages on this thread, which is most likely what happened to my opinion going by the evidence we currently poses lingustically and genetically: the assimilated body of Slavs wasn't that large to begin with but only expanded later as Albanian. They simply were not that significant to alter their autosomal profile. I would like to see some of their Family Finder profiles though just to see where they stand in comparison to Ghegs because as you mentioned judging by their 23andme profiles they don't differ much from us, some are even identical to us.

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Obviously bro, we are the same people as Tosks it's just that they differ in some dialectical and traditional/cultural aspects

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

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Bro, Mic Sokoli and Sokol Baci were 110% Albanians, not servs. Their names and surnames don`t make them servs.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

Who's talking about 1.5k years ago? I'm not simply referring to a singular event of Slavs migrating down to the Balkans, I'm talking about Balkan Medieval history.

The study doesn't say what you imply it says. Clearly our neighbouring populations were affected greatly by us, but clearly we were also affected by them. Tosks were affected by the Slavs genetically, they have many times more genetic markers that are completely Slavic in origin. That's as much as I can understand from it because you don't speak English very well and you don't seem very capable of speaking in a logical manner. I'll say it again, Albanians share a lot of IBD with Poles, Tosks have quite a lot of Slavic Y-DNA. I.e., we're not pure, and especially not Tosks.

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I was referring to the study

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.

I am not talking about pure or not, but you can’t ignore the highest levels of IBD sharing in Europe and the fact that that we affected all our neighbours. We are the first in the list of every neighboring country.
And in our list Poland is in the 13 place.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...o.1001555.s003
You admitted South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically,

So are albanians so far, according to the study also descendents of illirians dardans epirots??
I hope this time my english improved a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

This is genetic, a genetic theory based on few hundreds persons tested following a methodology that nobody here explain. We were discussing history.

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Look dude...
What methodology are you talking about? We have to go with the two scientific studies we have regarding Tosks, which is 104 from Sarno et al 2015 plus 121 from Ferri et al. 2010 for a total of 225 Tosks. They pretty much tell the same story regarding Y-DNA distribution.

Or else, If you don't believe these numbers why don't you test yourself or recruit other Tosks to test so we don't have to rely on these studies and help our project at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Laberia

Bro, Mic Sokoli and Sokol Baci were 110% Albanians, not servs. Their names and surnames don`t make them servs.

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Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

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The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans..
When happened this split? This is hard to say. It`s not impossible that this split existed even when the migration of IE people happened.