I made several "simulations", you can see :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtíbero Itálico
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I made several "simulations", you can see :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtíbero Itálico
Where is your French side from exactly? In any case your 10-15% Near Eastern ancestry only fits in Piedmont, Liguria or Tuscany, not Veneto, Friuli or Trentino. Maybe Emilia but I never seen a G25 model of it using ancient populations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnium
Maybe on eurogenes you end up closer to those NE Italians but in terms of ancient components you have something that is out place for that part of Italy.
French side is from Haute-Savoie predominantly, a bit of Aosta (1/8) and distant Swiss French (I don't know how much). So Northern French genetically. You used maybe a Central/Southern French reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
I used only "possible" scenarios that aren't wild guesses at all. Now the french part can be a bit different but in terms of "Northern component", the range is accurate. So I don't think that I will be "Tuscan shifted" or Ligurian shifted, definitely.
Like I said the Near Eastern DNA isn't magically going to disappear, NE Italians have less than 5% of it. At this point if you prefer k13 abstract components over actual ancestral populations, you might as well use some other metric than components to look at closeness(fst distance?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnium
French_North is definitely a northern selection of samples, it's more northern than Alsace and only barely different from French_Paris.
You don't get an "exact" 50/50 of the ancestries of your parent in modeling and calculors, also it's possible to have more Near Eastern DNA but at the same time more Northern components as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
A northern French + Central Greek reference doesn't make you end up in Liguria/Tuscany. Not at all. Using only Eurogenes make that guess irrealistic.
Emilia is at 41% N.Atlantic + Baltic combined, given that Leto has taken a Central French average and a very Southern Italian average (South-Italian).
Also many NE Italians can be modeled as 75% French + 25% W.Asian.
Now I wouldn't use G25 Apulian samples, they are quite weird and not really representative. We don't even know from where they are. They could be from everywhere in Apulia. Even Taranto or very northern areas close to Abruzzo. That's why I used references, if I begin to use real samples from Southern Italy it can mean everything and nothing.
4/4 grandparents from Annecy (Haute Savoie):
Distance to: French:Annecy
8.58855052 Italy_Trentino
9.49325550 Italy_Aostavalley
9.75626978 French
10.15196040 France-South
10.75939589 Italy_Piedmont
10.80314306 Italy_Veneto
10.82755743 Austria-Tyrol
11.41417978 German_Bavarian
11.49806505 Spanish_Galicia
11.69361364 Italy_Friuli
12.10000413 Spanish_Cataluna
12.21911617 Italy_Lombardy
12.27182546 Portuguese
12.40666756 West_German
12.56725507 South_Dutch
13.18250356 Belgium
13.63896624 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
14.12036473 Spanish_Murcia
14.25924262 Austria-Burgenland
14.40413135 Spanish_Extremadura
14.87406804 Italy_Liguria
16.20016589 Szekely
16.36506034 Serbian
16.50915201 Spanish_Valencia
16.58200832 Italy_Emiliaromagna
Target: French:Annecy
Distance: 5.8588% / 5.85877498 | ADC: 0.25x
57.4 Italy_Trentino
21.8 France-South
18.8 West_Norwegian
2.0 Yemenite_Jewish
From Lyon (Rhône department), this one seems to have less Italian influence:
Distance to: French:Lyon
5.79624879 French
7.00464132 Italy_Aostavalley
7.89427641 France-South
8.33406263 German_Bavarian
8.67676207 South_Dutch
9.06284172 Austria-Tyrol
9.53753637 Spanish_Cataluna
10.15554528 Belgium
10.70161670 Spanish_Galicia
10.85715893 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
10.93993144 Italy_Piedmont
11.25118660 Portuguese
11.84057431 Spanish_Cantabria
12.25226918 Spanish_Extremadura
12.37286547 Southwest_English
12.65518076 Spanish_Murcia
12.86287293 Italy_Trentino
12.92921111 Southwest_French
13.19119024 West_German
13.39495427 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
13.80398493 Spanish_Valencia
13.96695386 Southeast_English
14.00549178 Italy_Veneto
14.37322859 England
14.62908405 Spanish_Aragon
Target: French:Lyon
Distance: 2.4089% / 2.40890350 | ADC: 0.25x
65.2 French
16.8 French_Basque
11.2 Southwest_English
5.4 North_Ossetian
1.4 Southwest_French
K15 updated has average for both Apulia and Calabria, you can try different combinations:
French:Annecy,27.48,23.45,11.74,5.70,16.05,0.32,13 .69,0.19,1.28,0,0,0,0.10,0,0
French:Lyon,25.71,28.81,7.95,6.07,16.84,7.62,4.00, 1.88,0.30,0,0.69,0,0,0,0.12
The first result is very strange if I had to say. It doesn't look like any result from that area. I think that he has something like italian ancestors back in time (great-grandparents probably).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid Flumina
Haute-Savoie is located in the Northern French cluster, and Lyon is more like Central France, genetically, according to the wide study of Giemza et all.
Red Haute-Savoie, Green Rhône (where Lyon is located)
https://i.imgur.com/fgkXV3A.png
I have already used a Northern sample and my Apulian cherrypicked sample is even more northern than the Abruzzo average anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnium
You are using Eurogenes not meQuote:
A northern French + Central Greek reference doesn't make you end up in Liguria/Tuscany. Not at all. Using only Eurogenes make that guess irrealistic.
According to what?Quote:
Also many NE Italians can be modeled as 75% French + 25% W.Asian.
You are really cherrypicking, there is absolutely nothing weird about the Apulian sample specifically, virtually no region south of Lazio has less near eastern than the sample I cherrypicked for the sake of the argument.Quote:
Now I wouldn't use G25 Apulian samples, they are quite weird and not really representative.
Now you are just reaching, there is not some magical place in Southern Italy where somehow there is no Near Eastern admixture or that little of it, I already literally cherrypicked the one that had 10% less Near Eastern than the average. You really seem to have already come to a conclusion and walking your way, going against a far more reasonable model.Quote:
We don't even know from where they are. They could be from everywhere in Apulia. Even Taranto or very northern areas close to Abruzzo. That's why I used references, if I begin to use real samples from Southern Italy it can mean everything and nothing.
Well my ancestry is from an area that's Northern France genetically so not really cherrypicked. And Abruzzo can be more southern than Apulia, it's not surprising, I've seen many apulians samples scoring more "northern" than the Abruzzo average. Abruzzo isn't the tail end of the Southern Italian cluster.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Well Eurogenes can be kind of outdated, and there are blurry component, but what you need to understand is that what Tuscans and Emilians are East Med shifted compared to other Northern Italians. Modeling someone that's half "apulian" (we can take that) and half Northern French would make him plotting along Lombardy, Piemonte, Veneto rather than Emilia. "Northern" ratios don't match at all.Quote:
You are using Eurogenes not me
That's a common oracle in Eurogenes for Northern Italians, because yes they do have some East Med ancestry inherited mainly from Roman Imperial era, also you don't seem to understand that there are heavy differences in Northern Italy depending if it's the plain or an alpine area... You can't use Alpine areas as a benchmark for all Northern Italy, because they are very atypical genetically.Quote:
According to what?
You're saying idiocies anyway, half Portuguese Italian half Central Greek (Apulian) model plot in Tuscany/Northern Tuscany, half French half Central Greece would plot in Emilia that's very Tuscan shifted ? That's not logical at all.Quote:
Now you are just reaching, there is not some magical place in Southern Italy where somehow there is no Near Eastern admixture or that little of it, I already literally cherrypicked the one that had 10% less Near Eastern than the average. You really seem to have already come to a conclusion and walking your way, going against a far more reasonable model.
And I've never said there isn't Near Eastern admixture in any Southern Italian place, wtf. I've literally never said that and I'm always repeating on threads that Southern Italians do have some "Non-Euro" admixture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnium
It's one of the two Annecy kits I sent you few months ago, other one was very similar. I personally checked their genealogy, extremely local (Choisy/Sillingy area) at least back to their great great grandparents.
About Haute Savoie cluster, I found this PCA from a French guy over at Anthrogenica thats been collecting samples from other French members:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/146n...Jk2ht281x/view
Bourgogne RHA (in chartreuse) + Swiss French + Martine (Jura department) should give you a rough idea
Also interesting position in Lukasz K36 report:
https://i.imgur.com/1i9tqYe.png