Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

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Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

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Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

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Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

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That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

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Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.

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Also surnames of Bulgarian origin are pretty common in Wallachia.
"Dobre" seems to be the 47th most popular surname in Romania with 42k people bearing it. It is mostly concentrated there.

https://i.ibb.co/R4jhV4N/image.png

Another one is "Voicu", which is the 46th most popular in the country with also 42k holders. Again mostly concentrated in Wallachia.

https://i.ibb.co/DLTCHnW/image.png

And that's without counting derivatives like those with changed suffixes like Voiculescu (3.5k), Boicu (3k), Dobrescu (8k), Dobrin (9k), Dobrea (3.5k), Dobrean (800), Dobreanu (800), Dobromir (600), etc.

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Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

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Because it must have been a key location for the people that they called Vlachs. Maybe that was the first "gate" for the trade into Wallachia from the direction of Bulgaria? That was probably its defining feature, hence the Slavic Vlasca.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

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Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

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According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

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A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

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Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

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Alfatlar was either a mixed Turkish/Bulgarian village or a Turkish village. I mean, even its current name is Turkish and there are three more Turkish villages with the same name. But there are only a few Turks now.

Bulgarian Wikipedia claims it is Bulgarian since 1571, and the name Alfatar is Proto-Bulgar. Proto-Bulgars lived before 1571, yet the village is not present in 1530.


See the geolocation of it and the presence of Bulgarian villages in 1530. In red circles. The rest is Turkish.

https://i.ibb.co/Ttjsx9f/Ads-z.png

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Originally Posted by Leto

Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

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Exactly.

Eastern Bulgarians = A mix of Western Bulgarians, Greeks, Thracian Bulgarians + Actual Eastern Bulgarians.

Gagauz = Actual Eastern Bulgarians + Greeks + Bulgarians who moved to Moldova.

Caspias is somewhat right. In Eastern Bulgaria there has always been a Bulgarian population, but it was mostly rural. The Ottoman population is predominantly urban. For the entire 500-year period there has been a large movement of Bulgarians throughout the ethnic territory. Much of this territory today is outside the borders of Bulgaria. Until the middle of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century the predominant movement of the Bulgarians was in the direction of the western Balkans and the north. But from the beginning of the 19th century. a return from west to east begins. All these internal migrations are caused by a number of reasons - influenced by internal or external factors.