^Cool stuff. I´m the eight bar in the chart btw. Oh yeah, also might as well post my top 20 Eurogenes´ matches while I´m at it. No graph though.
FI
FI
WEUFI2
FI
FI5
FI
FI
FI
Komi1
FI
FI
FI
FI
CA1
FI
US203
FI
Printable View
^Cool stuff. I´m the eight bar in the chart btw. Oh yeah, also might as well post my top 20 Eurogenes´ matches while I´m at it. No graph though.
FI
FI
WEUFI2
FI
FI5
FI
FI
FI
Komi1
FI
FI
FI
FI
CA1
FI
US203
FI
For the Brits who score some Scandinavian and Baltic
Norwegian/Swedish(Scandinavian) = Anglo-Saxon or Danish Vikings
Norwegian/Swedish + Lithuanian/Belarusian(Baltic) = Norwegian Vikings
I am the fourth bar, all light green. :)
Non-genetic studies would be relatively simple. You just take which people cluster together, and study them for common facial traits.Quote:
I guess that type of research might be difficult and complex or maybe not. The nose might be affected by hundreds or thousands of genes. The jaw can affect the shape of the nose, and that can be changed by diet. Environmental, social selection and mutations play their roles. For example, mouth breathing or an accident could alter the face.
As for genetic studies, the way that genetics technology is progressing, they will probably be doing these types of things sooner than we think.
The ür-Finn;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aino
Some of the Irish score higher amounts viking genes! :D I wonder where UK16 is from. UK16's all Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
I'm UK9 and got -
48.6% Green (French (Atlantic?))
33.9% Pink (Norwegian + Swedish (Scandinavian))
11.8% Blue (Italian (Southern European)) - one of only two out of the UK and Irish participants to have any real presence of this
5.4% Red (Belarussian + Lithuanian (Baltic?))
0.0001% Yellow (Spanish (Iberian))
0.0001% Light Blue (Hungarian (Central European))
I'm from an area that saw both Norwegian and Danish Vikings, plus I have some Irish (possibly more Norwegian Vikings), and I supposedly have some Norman ancestors (Danish Viking).
You can be sure you're a Finn:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aino
Could somebody technically more competent than me post the new fine scale analyses of Estonians, Finns and Russians here? I can´t get it here. :rolleyes: I´d appreciate it. :)
Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Estonians, Finns & Russians
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/FIN2.png
SpreadsheetQuote:
Key: Red = Polish (Central-Eastern European), Light Green = Lithuanian (Baltic), Aqua Blue = Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian), Purple = Swedish + Norwegian (Scandinavian)
I'd like to add that the last bars are Russians obviously (in case someone don't bother to look at the spreadsheet...)
In this new analysis, I am 62.8% Scandinavian, 23.7% Baltic, and 13.5% Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian). That makes sense considering what is known about the population history of Finland. Also, since I was 100% Finnish/Finnic in the previous run, my results in this run probably represent the results of a typical Finn.
The purple (Scandinavian/Swedish+Norwegian) component is very strong in Finns compared to Russians and Estonians. :)
Thanks a lot Palla! I´m once again the eight bar. What is interesting is the red Polish (Central-Eastern European) I have which is completely absent in other Finns. Polako suggested that it´s actually most likely relatively recent South Scandinavian (Danish?) influence that wasn´t picked up by the purple Swedish+Norwegian (Scandinavian) component (hope I´m not screwing up all the terminology here :p). Anyway, hopefully this "mystery" will be solved. This is all so fascinating! :)
Am I right in saying that Estonians and Russians are genetically closer to each other than either are to Finns?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Russians(mostly NW-Russians, who have heavy Finnic heritage) form a group between the Estonians and the Finns. Finns are genetically closer to NW-Russians than they are to Estonians and Estonians are genetically closer to NW-Russians than they are to the Finns. You can look at this way, Finns are northern-Finnics, NW-Russians are central-Finnics and Estonians are southern-Finnics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
The same logic applies to the fact that Germans are genetically closer to the Danes than they are to the Swedes.
But Finns are a more interesting group, they have experienced a serious bottle-neck and form their own little neat genetic cluster.
Russians are a very wide group, by the way, only NW-Russians show considerably higher genetic similarity to Estonians and the Finns, because of the recently assimilated Finnic people. While your average southern-Russian might be genetically more similar to a Georgian than he is to any Northern-European.
I think that I already explained something similar in a PM, but you said that my 23andme results clearly show that I am a Slav.
Edit: I am trying to make things more obvious, as you weren't able to grasp some things on previous occasions. Linguistics nor ethnical groupings do not play the main role in genetics. Geography, bottlenecks and historical assimilation/migrations play a role. Thus a Germanic Austrian is more similar to a Romance Northern-Italian, than he is to a Germanic Northern-German. Albanians are genetically similar to the Serbians, as they descend from the same native population of the Balkan people etc.
I was just saying that you cluster with some Slavic groups (Polish?). I do as well (cluster with Poles and Ukrainians, as well as Germans and French). And you almost cluster with Russians according to that metric. It's just interesting, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
It isn't interesting, it is completely normal and logical, when looking at the 23andme sample populations. There are many(the ones I share with) Finns and Swedes who cluster with the Russians or the Poles in the 23andme cluster. That's because of the lack of Northern-European(no, the French aren't Northern-Europeans) sample populations. Thus the true "northerners" the Estonians and the Finns are too northern for the Northern-European cluster. Anyway, in my Eastern-European view, the most Russian person is a Finn(almost in the center of the cluster), while some Russians, who I share with, are on the edges of the Russian cluster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
23andme should radically update its sample populations. A Finnish cluster should definitely be added, as there are so many Finns there. :p
Oops, no I´m the ninth bar (FI 6), not the eight. Has somebody new been added to the chart? I swear to God I was the eight bar just a couple of days ago... Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Draper
I just got around to looking at the "Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' white Americans" and got this:
It's interesting. I seem to score a little higher than other Americans for the Baltic category, but a lot higher for Finnic, other than those with huge proportions like 50% who are probably actually part Finnish. I believe it must have to do with my Lithuanian ancestry. :)
Also, I score just a little higher than most for the Ashkenazim category. It's hard to tell though. Lots of people with about 0% and then others with anywhere from 15% and up, but those might be people with known Ashkenazi ancestry. Also, this run confuses Southern European ancestry with Jewish ancestry. Not that I have any known Southern European ancestry either though.
Yes it´s interesting. Even EESE1 who I assume to be half Estonian half Swedish (Simonsson perhaps? :)) scores lower Scandinavian percentages than any of the Finns do. On the other hand his Chuvash component is bigger than that of any of the Estonians which is curious. Anyhow, the "Baltic force" is still indeed very strong in him. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Germanics
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8263/germ.pngQuote:
As you can see, there are two bar plots featured below, courtesy of a "supervised" run in ADMIXTURE 1.1 focusing on Germanic speakers. The first shows samples from the UK, Low Countries, Germany and Scandinavia, while the second includes mixed individuals, or at least those lacking single country codes. Unfortunately, many eligible project members missed out, but this is something of a test run anyway, so I'll give you a spin next time in a more refined version.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2310/mixc.png
Quote:
Key: Red = French (North Atlantic), Yellow = Balorussian + Lithuanian (Baltic), Green = Hungarian (Central European), Aqua = Southern & Central Italian + Greek (Southern European), Dark Blue = Chuvash (Volga-Ural), Pink = Basque. See spreadsheets for details here and here.
Basically, the most striking feature is the predominance of the red, a cluster created with the help of a filtered group of French samples from the HGDP. I'm calling it "North Atlantic", because it always peaks in individuals from around that general area. You can see that it's most prevalent here in the UK set, which really doesn't show much of anything else except some "Central European" (courtesy of a filtered Hungarian reference set sporting classic Central European genetic characteristics).
The German group is quite easy to spot, largely thanks to a steep rise in "Baltic" yellow and "Southern European" aqua in their part of the plot. These Germans are from all over Germany, and several have recent ancestry from Prussia and Silesia, so the "Baltic" scores of 20% + make sense. Scandinavians are even more distinctive - just look for the steady level of the blue "Volga-Ural". This is obviously a signal of Finnic ancestry in Scandinavia, and certainly not straight up East or North Eurasian admixture.
Interestingly, the person who describes themselves as German/Italian (DEIT1) shows just over 45% membership in the Southern European cluster. This is obviously much higher than any of the reportedly unmixed Germans.
The pink "French Basque" cluster appears in a choppy, sporadic fashion. It's clearly not a steady feature of any of the Germanic groups featured in this comparison, unlike it is of the Spaniards and Portuguese (see here).
Of all the "Germanics"(not counting the mixed individuals) only SE4 have higher Dark Blue(Chuvash (Volga-Ural) than me:cool:
my numbers
Red(North Atlantic) 0.812146
Yellow(Baltic) 0.127156
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.060668
Pink(Basque) 0.00001
So this is in the same order as the spreadsheet linked to? If so, I'm the sixth one along, mostly red (N Atlantic) with a bit of yellow (Mitteleuropa). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Me;Quote:
Red(North Atlantic) 0.812146
Yellow(Baltic) 0.127156
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.060668
Pink(Basque) 0.00001
Red(North Atlantic) 0.900592
Yellow(Baltic) 0.077888
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.02149
Pink(Basque) 0.00001
What the devil? Didn't I get 10% 'Basque' the other day? :p
And look at my Volzhsko-Uralskost'! :eek: Mind aiup oksele... ;)
I note that I'm the only UK member with any real aqua, more like the German members (which makes sense as they are from part of Europe much closer to Italy), although for the others I seem very much typically British.
I have 81.1% French/North Atlantic, which seems fairly normal for the UK.
For the Belorussian and Lithuanian/Baltic cluster, I have 10.3%, which is almost double what I had of this cluster in the last analysis, although I don't know if that is significant in any way.
For Hungarian/Central European and for Basque, I have almost nothing, which isn't out of the ordinary for the UK.
For the Southern & Central Italian and Greek (Southern European), I have 7.05%, so around half of what I had last time, with the Baltic cluster gaining this half from what I can tell.
For Chuvash (Volga-Ural), I have 1.4% and this is probably just due to similarity with Scandinavians.
My results from here:
North Atlantic: 74.17%
Balto-Slavic: 0.00%
Southern European: 17.54%
Volga-Ural (Finnic): 8.29%
I seem to be the only "German" (which I'm not really in the modern sense anyway) who has no Slavic component. In that sense I'm more alike to Britishers, but with somewhat more SE.
Seems your more Finnic than me Loki :confused:
my numbers from that one
North Atlantic: 81.41%
Balto-Slavic: 12.53%
Southern European: 0.00%
Volga-Ural (Finnic): 6.04%
Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Scandinavians, Finns and Russians
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8335/fscan.pngQuote:
In this "supervised" ADMIXTURE experiment I assume that Northern and Northeastern Europeans are a mix of just four ancestral groups: Atlantic, Central European, Baltic and Volga-Ural. I picked French samples most similar to those from the Low Countries in my dataset, while the Hungarians I used could pass for Austrians or Germans on many PCA/MDS maps. It's interesting to note the high level of the "Atlantic" component in Baltic Finns, and I put that down to Scandinavian admixture. Similarly, the "Central European" component in some of these Finns is probably of Swedish origin, but it might be German too. In Russia it's most certainly due to Slavic influence.
Quote:
Key: Red = French + Flemish + Dutch (Atlantic), Light Green = Hungarian (Central European), Aqua = Lithuanian (Baltic), Purple = Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian). See spreadsheet for details.
My numbers(NO2)
Red 76.85
Light Green 0.00
Aqua 18.50
Purple 4.64
compared with NO1(western Norwegian)
Red 80.52
Light Green 11.38
Aqua 3.74
Purple 4.35
Neat! My percentages (FI6).
Red (Atlantic) 45.24 %
Light Green (Central European) 16.10 %
Aqua (Baltic) 25.68 %
Purple (Eastern European + Siberian) 12.96 %
There's a newer version of the Germanic results available -
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/f...ogenes_07.html
My percentages yesterday -
81.1% French/North Atlantic
10.3% Belorussian and Lithuanian/Baltic cluster
7.05% Southern & Central Italian and Greek (Southern European)
1.40% Chuvash (Volga-Ural)
0.0001% Hungarian/Central European
0.0001% Basque
My percentages today -
83.7% Selected French (North Atlantic) - Average for UK 93.6%
8.7% Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic) - Average for UK 5.1%
5.9% Italian + Greek (Southern European) - Average for UK 0.6%
1.5% Chuvash (Volga-Ural) - Average for UK 0.5%
0.99997% Selected French (North Atlantic)
0.00001% Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic)
0.00001% Italian + Greek (Southern European)
0.00001% Chuvash (Volga-Ural)
Ok for that I am
I know that Simonsson has never done a genetic test, but I know nothing about EESE1, but I assume that his/her Swedish ancestors are from Northern-Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Draper
Practically saying, Estonia, Finland, Scandinavia have had one wave of Indo-European immigrants, the terrain in Estonia and Finland was so marshy and inhospitable for farming, that the Indo-European people nor their languages were successful here.Quote:
Anyhow, the "Baltic force" is still indeed very strong in him. :p
The "Baltic force" you are talking about is driven up by the very Finnic Lithuanians(Looking at their N1c1 rates and one could say that they're almost like a bunch of Finns).
Polako does his research by taken sample populations, naming them and then telling people who high of a percentage the people got of that sample population.
If he took an Estonian sample population and named it "southern-Finnic", then we would be speaking about "the Finnic force" in the Lithuanians. If the Baltic people/Indo-Europeans would have had an opportunity to leave a strong enough mark here, then I would be speaking an Indo-European language. We can say with completely certainty, that all of Western- and Northern-Europeans didn't speak Indo-European languages originally, but now they do. Thus the climate/terrain/marshiness etc. here must have been very inhospitable for the Indo-Europeans, for us to still speak a language which predates Indo-European in Northern-Europe.
The thing with Polako is that he denies any Finnic/Finno-Ugric presence among the Lithuanians and genetically to him, they are 100% Baltic. While in reality, they are our FinN1c brothers. ;) Divide that "Baltic" into half, with one half being "Baltic" and the other half being "southern-Finnic".
I think that you have read my signature on ForumBiodiversity, it sums up his views quite perfectly.
No professional gene scientist who makes researches in population genetics, doesn't think that the Indo-Europeans were in Finland before the Finno-Ugric people.
Hi Mordid...:rolleyes:
I suspected the same some time back, but notice his join date, Dec 2009. ;) So I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Let's just say there's a reason why EESE1 scores less North Atlantic than some Finns. I can't say why, but Karls' on the right track, for once.
That isn't him but "dragon" is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/c...-european.html
My numbers
Red(French+Germans) 0%
Yellow(Finnish) 20.07%
Green(Western and Northern Russian) 0%
Blue(Irish+British) 79.91%
Oh yes, this one. OK, my numbers. Once again a good fer nuttin´ mutt.
Red=French+Germans (Continental Western European)= 13.45 %
Yellow=Finnish (Baltic Finnic)= 53.05 %
Green=Western and Northern Russian (Eastern European)= 9.79 %
Blue=Irish+British (North Atlantic)=23.69 %
Purple=Italian + Greek (Southern European)=0 %
Oh forgot the purple(Italian+Greek)... I also got 0% in that one.
:)
Couple of more Baltic plots from Lemminkäinen
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/749...00d2100d30.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7...00d20d3100.gif
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/313...d2100d3100.gif
Any interpetations on my results?
Interesting to see that the Danish guy (DK2) seems to be the most Western, and then come the scandinavians. There is a clear western-eastern gradient.