Why would I bother learning Polish when Magnolia can translate what you are trying to say to me anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
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Why would I bother learning Polish when Magnolia can translate what you are trying to say to me anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
Because one day, Mahnolia can dissappear :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Yes, in order to get to modern Bulgarians from BA Bulgarians you would need something extremely ANE heavy, like Yamnaya, something similar existed in Scythians during this time period. However, modern Balto-Slavs, Corded Ware/LMBA steppe populations+Turks or a middle-eastern population also does the trick. I don't argue for either or, the end result is more important to me than the how.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADonkeyBrain
I appreciate the intellectual honesty and fair analysis.
Btw, here's the properly done PCA from the Bell Beaker paper I was referring to. Very different from this one.
http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/beaker-pc_aaqasnw.png
The positions of North Italian Bell Beakers are rather disappointing(basically implies the Bell Beakers who migrated there mixed right away didn't stay unmixed long enough to remain an "elite" like my WE WUZ VIKANGZ ass would want), but I'll reserve judgement for when we get more samples, Bell Beaker migration wasn't the last Indo-European migration into the Appenine Peninsula before the Roman Republic either.
indeed, however there was also some E in ukraine before slavic expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
G2 isn't enuagh for you? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jingorex
Xeno, forget the Turks my man. There's nothing that points to "Turks". The "Anatolian" part of it has to do with the CHG/Iran_Neo-heavy pre-Turkic populations of the area since the Chalcolithic.
Anatolian Turkish ancestry doesn't exist in Balkanites in any decent amounts, just compare their Central-East Asian components to the Balkans. Though I'm sure all those Bulgars, Pechenegs, Uz and whatever else left the tiny Eastern components you find sometimes, especially in the Northeast Balkans.
"(pre-Turkic) Anatolians" and "Slavs", that's what it looks like so far but we'll see.
yes, hellenthal's study from 2014 has Greeks as 63% Cypriot+ 37%SlavicQuote:
Originally Posted by ADonkeyBrain
Maybe i'm just being a G snob? I would really like to see more concrete data on my G1 tho, until i do i remain convinced that i was engineered by ancient aliens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
https://media.giphy.com/media/YlkswnOSeBLlS/giphy.gif
Take example from me. I am happy for every R1b which is founded, self being R1a :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jingorex
Yes, of course the Balkans never looked like either of those so this modelling sounds more dramatic than the reality likely is. I'm wondering how Bronze Age Crete and Cyprus will turn out. Bet they will already be moved towards their modern position overall and will show strong connections to Anatolia but who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by mongrel
Either way this new study sort of tends to point to what we generally know, that the Balkans have had connections mostly to Anatolia and Northeast Europe that start-and-stop-and-repeat - since forever.
There is nothing which ties I2a1b to that area, as by modern distribution (of older clades, Isles and Disles) AND by ancient DNA (most of northwestern Mesolithic hunter-gatherers plus Neolithic England and Scotland were I2a1b) it is clear I2a1b arose in northwestern Europe, and is native to that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
But I suppose you were talking about I2a1b "Dinaric"? Dinaric is merely a branch of Disles, which has highest concentration on British Isles. Also, Motala12 sample from Mesolithic Sweden is I2a1b "Dinaric". There is nothing which would make it eastern European. We can only speculate when its bearers adopted Slavic language, but most probably it happened quite recently.
perhaps you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
https://media.giphy.com/media/tsgNNs93oIbwk/giphy.gif
My mother's side is I2a2a2 (I-M223), belonging to the branch that spans the Mediterranean. TMRCA with French and German members is estimated at over 7,000 years ago. Perhaps a descendant of one of these I2a2 Balkan samples. :)
Yeah youre right.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
But there actually is a continuity as there are Albanians who do plot north as north italy just east without any slavic or germanic admix.
There seems to of been a certain genetic gap between north and south Balkans which is why some of these plot more south with tuscans and others more north italy. Those Southern plotting Albanians , including some Ghegs here, really do seem to have Southern ancestry and closer plotting to Tuscans. They are not gonna plot with that Dalmatian found even if he was already mixed. He'd be closer to some really north plotting Albanian or north Italian.
Bulgarian average is also more north than tuscan. Thracian samples plotted east of tuscan but northern ilyrian would be more northern plotting, thisis wherei plot
https://image.ibb.co/iGMKnv/Ali_Pasha.png
Those cimrians, veneto etc are just north italian areas on average.
This seems very plausible theory, I can attest this with my results I get which tells me that my family lineage at past was greatly affected genetically by indo-european groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Europa Nazione
This is my group....hmm..interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Btw big boss, those ydna's are also found in greeks and tosks and for sure not anymore gheg but one thing for sure most of you south plotting and high greek scoring did not come from those parts of the balkans , they plot nowhere even close to you.
There is only one J2b2-M241 Euro branch, which is J2b2a-L283 and its subclades. There is an old early Neolithic split of M241 into L283 "Europe" and Z2432 "South Asia". So I think it's time for people to stop using M241 SNP, and use J2b2-L283 (J-L283) when we're talking about the Euro J2b2, as I have been doing for years now. (It's like still using the upstream E-M78 when we're talking about E-V13).Quote:
Originally Posted by Europa Nazione
Nah man, I'm Ancient Greek + Illyrian. I probably have the Ancient J2b2-L283 clade, forefather of your clades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Pasha Tepelena
Fustan theorizes that I have the ancestral J2b2-L283 clade because I'm an Ancient beast.
^This is the real deal.
I am dissapointed because there isn't any gedmatch sample of ancient J2b2 Dalmatian and R1b L23 Vučedol man.
Entire mystery of pre-Slavic population of the area could be solved if we saw their autosomal reusults (it is known they were steppe admixed, but not as much as other Europeans). So it could mean that even in proto Illyrian times population was largerly desndended from pre Indo-European natives joined with steppe elite invaders.
Yeahhhhhh. What the fuck is up with these reluctant geneticists keeping vital information away from the hungry crowd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Can't understand why they aren't available on gedmatch. Polish samples came out few days ago and we already have their autosomal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Seems south-eastern Europe is totally neglected when it comes to autosomal samples. I didn't even see proper Thracian sample yet people talk often about.
I wonder if we can ask some of the guys that have convertable software to run this samples on gedmatch if they are available in the research paper.
I have a feeling Ancient Greek results will be even more difficult to get info from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
This is important to me as I have a great deal of Ancient Greek ancestry as evident from my Autosomal results, be it Ancient Doric/Epirotean.
It is indeed strange how we don't have single ancient Greek sample yet, and they were most important classical civilisation togheder with Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
Maybe these SE European samples exist, but researchers are unwilling to release them to the public for some reason? (conspiracy theory)Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
We don't know the reasons. Southeastern Europe is seriously under sampled area and that shouldn't be the case. For example in case of Bosnia there are many Illyrian sites from where DNA can be extracted and we can finally know the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Destroyer
But maybe it is matter of money for all these countries.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7848297cef.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Boss
I thought litvin ran his dna through his k36 ancient calc. ask him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Which sample you mean ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Teh illirjan that you're talking aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
I hope this shuts down especially the Bosniaks here with massive identity krisis who think I2a is I2allyrian.
Bosniaks built pyramids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olive Picker
They are our white version of we wuz building pyrimidz and sheit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
http://takebackhalloween.org/wp-cont...g/ras-7047.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by The Illyrian Warrior
I re-uploaded two neolithic genomes from Greece http://www.open-genomes.org/genomes/Hofmanova%20(2016)/
Z394045 Rev5 Revenia, Central Greece 6438–6264 BCE
Puntdnal K13
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 60
2 SW_Asia 16.14
3 West_Asia 7.65
4 NE_Europe 6.8
5 West_Africa 5.77
6 NE_Asia 1.6
7 Oceania 1.58
8 SE_Asia 0.23
9 South_Africa 0.22
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 26.81
2 Italian_Abruzzo 27.39
3 Sephardic_Jew 27.8
4 Ashkenazy_Jew 28.25
5 Italian_Bergamo 29.01
6 Italian_Tuscan 29.05
7 Mozabite 29.19
8 Tunisian 29.57
9 Spaniard 29.95
10 Algerian 30.41
11 Puerto_Rican 30.98
12 French_Basque 31.06
13 Albanian 31.09
14 Greek_Central 31.18
15 Greek_Thessaly 31.18
16 Moroccan 31.54
17 Saharawi 31.94
18 Kosovar 32.28
19 Cypriot 33.31
20 Macedonian 35.43
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.6% Mozabite + 47.4% French_Basque @ 18.98
2 50.6% French_Basque + 49.4% Moroccan @ 19.98
3 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Saharawi @ 20.44
4 52.3% Tunisian + 47.7% French_Basque @ 20.56
5 51% Algerian + 49% French_Basque @ 20.58
6 50.3% Italian_Bergamo + 49.7% Mozabite @ 21.2
7 51.3% Mozabite + 48.7% Spaniard @ 21.26
8 61.4% French_Basque + 38.6% Egyptian_Copts @ 22.1
9 61.2% French_Basque + 38.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 22.14
10 50.3% Italian_Tuscan + 49.7% Mozabite @ 22.39
11 55.3% Italian_Bergamo + 44.7% Saharawi @ 22.47
12 54.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 45.6% Mozabite @ 22.61
13 61.8% French_Basque + 38.2% Egyptian @ 22.62
14 52.8% Spaniard + 47.2% Moroccan @ 22.66
15 53.5% Spaniard + 46.5% Saharawi @ 22.67
16 53.5% French_Basque + 46.5% Cypriot @ 22.74
17 54.9% Italian_Bergamo + 45.1% Moroccan @ 22.93
18 50.9% Spaniard + 49.1% Algerian @ 23.02
19 57.3% Sephardic_Jew + 42.7% French_Basque @ 23.06
20 50.8% Tunisian + 49.2% Spaniard @ 23.12
Eurogenes K15
Kit Z394045
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 West_Med 38.76
2 East_Med 28.79
3 Atlantic 20.76
4 Red_Sea 5.68
5 Sub-Saharan 4.88
6 Oceanian 1.13
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 15.45
2 Algerian_Jewish 23.16
3 West_Sicilian 23.9
4 Mozabite_Berber 24.44
5 Tunisian 24.55
6 Italian_Jewish 25.07
7 Tuscan 25.18
8 South_Italian 25.55
9 Moroccan 25.71
10 Algerian 25.79
11 Sephardic_Jewish 25.94
12 North_Italian 26.54
13 East_Sicilian 26.6
14 Spanish_Andalucia 27.54
15 Central_Greek 27.54
16 Tunisian_Jewish 27.66
17 Italian_Abruzzo 27.7
18 Greek 27.89
19 Ashkenazi 28.89
20 Libyan_Jewish 28.92
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.8% Sardinian + 21.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 9.13
2 65% Sardinian + 35% Tunisian @ 9.46
3 74.4% Sardinian + 25.6% Egyptian @ 9.5
4 75.3% Sardinian + 24.7% Palermianin @ 9.65
5 63.8% Sardinian + 36.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 9.83
6 68.5% Sardinian + 31.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.86
7 74.3% Sardinian + 25.7% Samaritan @ 10.01
8 76.9% Sardinian + 23.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 10.02
9 75.8% Sardinian + 24.2% Jordanian @ 10.09
10 75.9% Sardinian + 24.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 10.18
Z732775 Kleitos 10 (late neolithic Greece)
Puntdnal K13
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 58.98
2 SW_Asia 16.83
3 West_Asia 16.12
4 NE_Europe 4.74
5 West_Africa 1.65
6 NE_Asia 0.68
7 Oceania 0.46
8 South_Africa 0.37
9 SE_Asia 0.17
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 22.48
2 Sephardic_Jew 23.01
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 24.01
4 Italian_Abruzzo 24.07
5 Cypriot 26.8
6 Italian_Tuscan 27.53
7 Greek_Central 27.73
8 Italian_Bergamo 28.86
9 Greek_Thessaly 28.97
10 Albanian 29.15
11 Tunisian 29.83
12 Kosovar 30.31
13 Spaniard 31.44
14 Mozabite 31.67
15 Algerian 31.72
16 Moroccan 32.5
17 Lebanese_Christian 32.75
18 Puerto_Rican 33.48
19 French_Basque 33.96
20 Syrian 33.98
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% French_Basque @ 19.89
2 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 20
3 73.6% Sephardic_Jew + 26.4% French_Basque @ 20.92
4 75.6% Italian_Sicilian + 24.4% Mozabite @ 21.15
5 51.5% Lebanese_Christian + 48.5% French_Basque @ 21.43
6 79.8% Italian_Sicilian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 21.47
7 68.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 31.6% Mozabite @ 21.54
8 53.6% French_Basque + 46.4% Egyptian_Copts @ 21.57
9 81.2% Italian_Sicilian + 18.8% Saharawi @ 21.62
10 76.4% Sephardic_Jew + 23.6% Mozabite @ 21.89
11 70.3% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.7% Mozabite @ 21.99
12 84% Italian_Sicilian + 16% Moroccan @ 22.01
13 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Jordanian @ 22.02
14 84.1% Italian_Sicilian + 15.9% Algerian @ 22.06
15 59.6% Cypriot + 40.4% Spaniard @ 22.08
16 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 22.09
17 85.1% Italian_Sicilian + 14.9% Tunisian @ 22.21
18 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.21
19 73.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 26.2% Saharawi @ 22.23
20 79.2% Sephardic_Jew + 20.8% Spaniard @ 22.26
Also for comparison - neolithic Anatolia on Gedmatch
Z892662 Barcin 31 (neolithic Anatolia)
Z155641 Barcin 8 (neolithic Anatolia)
Barcin 8 has even modern relatives:)