German GEDmatch results

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

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You don't know shit but post arrogant comments.

My goal when looking for kits from Stolp/Lauenburg/Butow etc. was to find such Slavic-descended people.

I even invested some money into this research, I sponsored two DNA test kits for Klucken Museum in 2019.

Klucken is where a Slavic group known as Slovincians lived (and in some of neighbouring villages as well).

Because of the pandemic, they have not tested yet (because they visit Klucken every Summer, but not in 2020 and 2021).

If Klucken villagers test and turn out to be noticeably more Slavic-shifted than these GEDmatch kits, I'll change my mind.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

"Wenden und Kassuben" from eastern parts of Pommern are clearly a distinct population of their own.

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Yes, they were due to their language when they existed.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

My goal when looking for kits from Stolp/Lauenburg/Butow etc. was to find such Slavic-descended people.

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I know your obsession. You seem not to really have understood that you find Slavic-descended people in roughly half of the German people emeregence area and that the late Germanisation of the Slavs in Eastern Hinterpommern is nothing special but just one later step of what happened continously since abt. 700 years in the frame of the German Ostsiedlung. Now, depending on the exact settlememt history these areas are not homogenous in the aspect of proportion of Slavic ancestry in the population. But the process of ethnic conversion in the Lauenburg-Stolp-Bütow area is not isolated, but has happened in a number of places. If there would be visible a genetically distict population, I would gladly make them a region of their own. Now, the kits from Eastern Hinterpommern are more Slavic-like than these from Western Hinterpommern. The "problem" is, that Central Hinterpommern seems to be intermediate between these two parts, which means that Hinterpommern as for now looks like a section of a cline. In such a case you could always make three (or five or ten) parts with different averages and this is possible here too. Currently we have the province Pommern already split up in Vorpommern and Hinterpommern and the comparably high number of German regions have been criticized as too fine grained. In this context I'm not sure if it's meaningful to split Hinterpommern up in three regions. We have smaller regions, f. i. in Thuringia, but just because we don't know the genetic in Western Thuringia and we want to be careful. But in Hinterpommern it looks like a "normal" cline. More kits are appreciated and they can be re-grouped at any time if there seem to be a factual cause for that. As you know I've no problem with having genetically different regions with visible genetic borders separate, like Upper Silesia and Masuria, which both have very Slavic-like genetics. So I would gladly do the same for Lauenburg-Bütow-Stolp if it turns out to be anything else than a sole continuation of the cline.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

In such case I will discard these kits and I'll use Klucken villagers as a reference for Hinterpommern Slavs.

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Why don't you just use them for what they are, Leba-Kaschuben or Slowinzen? I don't understand why you in a MyTrueAncestry-manner want to project your imaginations to things that you don't know for sure and hence mix facts with educated guesses.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

Yes, they were due to their language when they existed.

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Not only language, also genetics (do you think there was no difference, really?). And they were not the same reproductive community (at least as long as they maintained their Slavic language they married with other Slavic-speakers from neighbouring villages, not with Germans).

You once said that Germans in West Prussia & Poles in West Prussia differed genetically (I think that was when we discussed my Ancestry.com results when I scored "Pomorze" genetic community, and you wondered what it means, as in your opinion there were two different communities).

Do you seriously think that Wends/Kashubs and Germans in Pommern were not two different communities, but one?

Why this difference compared to West Prussian situation?

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Originally Posted by rothaer

I know your obsession.

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Why an obsession and not a hobby?

Your search for kits from every small German sub-group is also an obsession, I don't see any difference between our obsessions.

The difference is maybe that I'm also interested in other ethnicities/populations than my own.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

You seem not to really have understood that you find Slavic-descended people in roughly half of the German people emeregence area and that the late Germanisation of the Slavs in Eastern Hinterpommern is nothing special but just one later step of what happened continously since abt. 700 years in the frame of the German Ostsiedlung.

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Maybe I should have been more precise - my goal was to find 100% Wendish-descended people, untouched by the Ostsiedlung.

I know that all East Germans have West Slavic ancestry, but this is usually around 25-65% admixture, not even close to 100%.

But in Eastern Hinterpommern as you know there was no any rural Ostsiedlung - just like in case of Latvia & Estonia (Livonia).

No German peasants settled there. At least not during the Middle Ages.

So these people should be "living fossils" of Early Medieval Pomeranians.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

Now, the kits from Eastern Hinterpommern are more Slavic-like than these from Western Hinterpommern. The "problem" is, that Central Hinterpommern seems to be intermediate between these two parts, which means that Hinterpommern as for now looks like a section of a cline.

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That's maybe because in Central Hinterpommern the number of German peasants was about half of that in West Hinterpommern.

But, as I wrote above, in Eastern Hinterpommern this number was actually zero, as far as I know.

BTW what do you count as Central Hinterpommern & how do these results look like (how many kits)?

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Originally Posted by rothaer

In such a case you could always make three (or five or ten) parts with different averages and this is possible here too. Currently we have the province Pommern already split up in Vorpommern and Hinterpommern and the comparably high number of German regions have been criticized as too fine grained. In this context I'm not sure if it's meaningful to split Hinterpommern up in three regions. We have smaller regions, f. i. in Thuringia, but just because we don't know the genetic in Western Thuringia and we want to be careful. But in Hinterpommern it looks like a "normal" cline. More kits are appreciated and they can be re-grouped at any time if there seem to be a factual cause for that. As you know I've no problem with having genetically different regions with visible genetic borders separate, like Upper Silesia and Masuria, which both have very Slavic-like genetics. So I would gladly do the same for Lauenburg-Bütow-Stolp if it turns out to be anything else than a sole continuation of the cline.

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BTW, Draheim Land had no impact on genetics in Pommern? It almost cut Pommern into two parts:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6370870

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Originally Posted by rothaer

Why don't you just use them for what they are, Leba-Kaschuben or Slowinzen? I don't understand why you in a MyTrueAncestry-manner want to project your imaginations to things that you don't know for sure and hence mix facts with educated guesses.

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OK, I agree, Leba-Kaschuben/Slowinzen designation is fine. But it is also well-known that they are a remnant of a larger population.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

And maybe that's why geneticists do not use the category of "ethnicity", but the category of "population".

And these "Wenden und Kassuben" are not the same population as other Germans from Hinterpommern.

They are descended from 65,000 "Wenden und Kassuben" who lived in eastern Pommern in 1819 (according to Georg Hassel). Also they did not all magically start to consider themselves German 200 years ago, many of them preserved their Slavicness until the end of Hinterpommern's existence (1945).

Among these who preserved their Slavic language & identity until post-WW2 times, are Klucken villagers (see below).

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11% of County Stolp, 8.5% of County Lauenburg (according to the data you sent me, and a grand total of about 13,000 people, a good number of whom weren't even native to these counties but to Danzig, Koeslin, and East Prussia) were natives who remained post-WWII. Clearly the vast majority of these areas had come to consider themselves German, either because they actually had German ancestry or because they had "converted."

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

In such case I will discard these kits and I'll use Klucken villagers as a reference for Hinterpommern Slavs.

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No, you don't get to decide. Sample with 38 North Atlantic is certainly not Polish but eastern German. And guess what, it's geneaology says the same.
Your fantasies and imaginations play no part.

And you won't get any kind of information about the samples. None.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

Not only language, also genetics (do you think there was no difference, really?). And they were not the same reproductive community (at least as long as they maintained their Slavic language they married with other Slavic-speakers from neighbouring villages, not with Germans).

You once said that Germans in West Prussia & Poles in West Prussia differed genetically (I think that was when we discussed my Ancestry.com results when I scored "Pomorze" genetic community, and you wondered what it means, as in your opinion there were two different communities).

Do you seriously think that Wends/Kashubs and Germans in Pommern were not two different communities, but one?

Why this difference compared to West Prussian situation?

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The main difference is that there is a division into Protestants and Catholics in West Prussia, while in Eastern Farther Pomerania basically both groups are Protestants (I know there are exceptions from this).

Nevertheless the Slavic speakers in Eastern Hinterpommern will have been a separate reproduction community. But due to the continous Germanisation within the frame of Ostsiedlung the nearby Germans will not long ago have been within the same reproduction community as the Protestant Kashubs, because they themselves descend from Slavic speaking Pomeranians. The German Pomeranians will have some old-German admixture, but I assume the same for the Slavic speaking Protestant Kashubs. Protestant Kashubs and nearby German Pomeranians will have been basically the same genetically.

Based on the current data I have, the population of Lauenburg-Bütow-Stolp looks like a part of the cline just. But I'm open to deviating finds. If they are just a part of the cline you could cut out an arbitrary area, that then would have a deviating average and would look like something of it's own. But without actually being it.

More data for farther insights is welcomed, of course.

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

No, you don't get to decide.

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I wasn't talking about Vahaduo, you can label them as you want in Vahaduo.

I was talking about my own purposes.

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

38 North Atlantic is certainly not Polish but eastern German

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Not true, 38 is low for Germans, but Kashubians can have 38 North Atlantic.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

The German Pomeranians will have some old-German admixture, but I assume the same for the Slavic speaking Protestant Kashubs.

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Based on what do you assume this ??? And what do you mean by old-German, something like from the 1200s ???

Or German from Altdeutschland?

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Originally Posted by rothaer

Protestant Kashubs and nearby German Pomeranians will have been basically the same genetically.

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I think this is debatable and I think you have no strong evidence that this is the case.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

I wasn't talking about Vahaduo, you can label them as you want in Vahaduo.

I was talking about my own purposes.

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We labeled them what they are, ethnic Germans. Hopefully none will buy your fraudulent data.

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Not true, 38 is low for Germans

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False. It is normal score for Germans, not for for Poles.

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but Kashubians can have 38 North Atlantic.

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Guess what, they are mongrelized with German(ics). That's why only Kashubian member here looks like a stereotype of a German :laugh:

I use geographic labels not ethnic labels anyway. I will label them what they are, geographically.

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Guess what, they are mongrelized with German(ics).

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Most Poles have some Germanic admixture.

What distinguishes Kashubians first of all is that they have low amounts of South European DNA.

If you have low amount of Southern admixtures, your Baltic % and North Atlantic % both go up.