German GEDmatch results

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Originally Posted by Smitty

11% of County Stolp, 8.5% of County Lauenburg (according to the data you sent me, and a grand total of about 13,000 people, a good number of whom weren't even native to these counties but to Danzig, Koeslin, and East Prussia) were natives who remained post-WWII. Clearly the vast majority of these areas had come to consider themselves German, either because they actually had German ancestry or because they had "converted."

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When Germans were expelled from Eastern Germany, there were some territories, where the contemporary "Tomenables" considered the population to be of basically full Slavic origin. Such areas were Upper Silesia, Masuria and easternmost part of Hinterpommern. People were then given the possibility to declare themselves Poles (I don't know the exact content of that declaration) and then they could keep their possessions and stay. All other were robbed everything and expelled. So you may consider how much such declarations reflected the real opinon of people or where motivated by something else.

The figures mentioned by Tomenable are from 1950 and he told me that most of these few "autochtons" in Pomerania later left for Western Germany. He will likely confirm this. Maybe they just wanted to have the possibility to at least sell their property instead of getting completely robbed. Even the ethnic Slavic Slovincians/Leba-Kashubs later essentially all left for Western Germany. This is why Tomenable has problems seeing these people from the village of Klucken for testing.

It's weird that Tomenable is so much advocating for all this "surpressed" by Germans indigenous Slavs being Poles, while these deeply rooted Slavs themselves in fact even left their homeland to escape from Polish rule. They survived abt. 800 years within the HRE/German Empire (since 1180 AD), but not Polish rule.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

Maybe I should have been more precise - my goal was to find 100% Wendish-descended people, untouched by the Ostsiedlung.

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That would be fine.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

I know that all East Germans have West Slavic ancestry, but this is usually around 25-65% admixture, not even close to 100%.
But in Eastern Hinterpommern as you know there was no any rural Ostsiedlung - just like in case of Latvia & Estonia (Livonia).
No German peasants settled there. At least not during the Middle Ages.

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I'm not sure. In this map there is some old-German settlement depicted in the 14th century (yellow):

https://i.imgur.com/xvsTCtT.jpg

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

That's maybe because in Central Hinterpommern the number of German peasants was about half of that in West Hinterpommern.

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Yes, that sounds plausible.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

BTW what do you count as Central Hinterpommern & how do these results look like (how many kits)?

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Unfortunately just one. It's the middle one, so you can say Kolberg-Schievelbein. Flatow was in Pomerania after the dissolution of the Grenzmark.

Farther_Pomerania:Kr_Regenwalde,39.69,36.35,11.11, 7.11,1.93,0.33,2,0,0,0,0.07,1.35,0.07
Farther_Pomerania:Regenwalde_Wollin,39.38,35.58,9. 82,7.69,5.91,0,0,0,0,0,0.65,0,0.97
Farther_Pomerania:2/4_Kr. Kolberg-Körlin_1/4 Schievelbein_1/4_Flatow ,41.08,37.71,8.71,4.46,1.57,3.05,1.56,0.63,0,0.41, 0.1,0.72,0
Farther_Pomerania:Lauenburg_Stolp1,40.01,38.2,8.46 ,3.88,3.6,1.86,1.64,0,0.13,0.89,0.62,0.68,0
Farther_Pomerania Lauenburg_Stolp2,37.98,42.63,9.68,1.48,6.76,0,0,0. 8,0,0.07,0,0.38,0.22

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

BTW, Draheim Land had no impact on genetics in Pommern? It almost cut Pommern into two parts:

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I don't know. Afaik it was sparsely populated and the area was involved in Ostsiedlung like neighboring regions, maybe just somewhat later, in the 14th century, see map above.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

OK, I agree, Leba-Kaschuben/Slowinzen designation is fine. But it is also well-known that they are a remnant of a larger population.

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Yes. The Kashub term was even once present in Western Mecklenburg and "migrated" in steps till today's Kashubia. My Pomeranian German ancestors that eventually settled in Central Poland were called Kashubs by other Germans as well as by Poles. This was actually not wrong, but will have been derived from an earlier meaning of Kashubs. Today's Kashubs were not called Kashubs before the 16th century. Till then a central part of Hinterpommern, the land around Belgard, was called Cassubia.

I do not consider Communist rule as Polish rule, even if many of those Communists who ruled were Polish: they still had to listen to orders from Moscow.

Probably there is a reason why those autochthons who emigrated from Communist Poland, emigrated to West Germany, not to Communist East Germany.

If Poland after WW2 was also divided into two parts - American-influenced democratic vs. Communist - maybe they would emigrate to "American Poland".

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He will likely confirm this.

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Yes the majority from Stolp county & further west probably emigrated. But those in Butow & Lauenburg counties mostly stayed & integrated with Kashubs.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

The Kashub term (...) "migrated" in steps till today's Kashubia. (...) Today's Kashubs were not called Kashubs before the 16th century.

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We actually don't know this. I think today the prevailing opinion is that all Pomeranians were called Kashubs.

It was not the term that "migrated", but the places where it was recorded (by migrating Germans, usually).

So the term "Kashubs" could apply to the whole Pomerania since the beginning - not just to various pieces.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

I do not consider Communist rule as Polish rule (...)

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Your acrobacy opens completely new perspectives: I don't consider nationalsocialist rule as German rule. :)

But seruiously, the communist rule in GDR didn't harm the Sorbs too much, so why should it then be the aspect of communism that made essentially all Slovincians leave their homeland? Also, I can guarantee that there were no orders from Moscow how to treat particularly Slovincians.

You want to hear my interpretation? The Slovincians did not just experience the well known unpleasant intolerant Polish-Catholic chauvinsim, but these indigenous Slavs also felt completely lost in an ocean of alienating Poles, while they had felt much more comfortable and close with their expelled German neighbors and blood relatives that all were of the same Slavic-Pomeranian stock (with maybe some old-German/Germanic influence). It is a complete overestimation of oneself, if you think that these indigenous Slavs would like to live among Poles.
Completely confused actually and ignorant towards all insights given by the various held post WWI plebiscites, especially regarding all Protestant indigenous Slavs in the German Empire. The Slavic Masurs in East Prussia said "dziekuje bardzo" to the proposal to join Poland and in the Allenstein area there was voted for the German Empire with 97.9% and in the Marienwerder area with 92.4% majority.
What part of this message "We don't want to be with you, stay away." is unclear to you?

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

We actually don't know this. I think today the prevailing opinion is that all Pomeranians were called Kashubs.

It was not the term that "migrated", but the places where it was recorded (by migrating Germans, usually).

So the term "Kashubs" could apply to the whole Pomerania since the beginning - not just to various pieces.

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You mean without the German Kulturträgers it's unlikely that there was at all anything respective written up? Maybe.

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Originally Posted by rothaer

I don't consider nationalsocialist rule as German rule. :)

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That is a completely different situation:

1) Communist Poland was a satelite of the USSR, and orders came from Moscow.

2) Nazi Germany was not anyone's satelite state, and all orders were from Berlin.

Perhaps only Austrians can claim that it was occupation and add their old saying:

"Es gibt nur ein Kaiserstadt es gibt nur ein Wien es gibt nur ein Rauberloch das ist Berlin."

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Originally Posted by rothaer

"surpressed" by Germans indigenous Slavs

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Not all Germans suppressed Slavs. Austrians didn't. In the Austrian Empire all Slavs enjoyed cultural autonomy and there were no efforts to Germanize them. This is why for example in Poland the times of Austrian rule are remembered neutrally-to-positively, while both Russian and Prussian rule - negatively.

There was a huge contrast in the ways Austria vs. Prussia treated Slavs and in their policies towards their Slavic citizens.

Rothaer do you consider Communist East Germany as a fully independent country?

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

Rothaer do you consider Communist East Germany as a fully independent country?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Piotraschke

In fact I almost always use German sources from Pre-Bismarck times to support my opinions, and yet I still get criticized by German nationalists or their Axis minions. It just shows how much German nationalists have become brainwashed starting from the Bismarck era onwards.

You swallowed so much of anti-Polish bullshit from your books, textbooks, media, etc. that it is now hard to find a common ground for discussion.

German nationalists would need to burn all post-1871 books about Polish-German history, and go to the basics.

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I think rothaer has some agenda, but you do have a little bit of one too. :coffee: