Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

troll game is weak, laberia.

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Let see who is troll here.
First, using and abusing with this poor retard Sorcelow you started this thread: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania
At the beggining was another member who noticed that your initiative was stupid:

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Originally Posted by Europa Nazione

:cry2

Here we talk about I2a1b Dinaric, not I2a1, which evolved long time ago.
So, mods, change this thread name to ''Slavic I2a1b in southern Albania''.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

So, you are suggesting that the OP is an idiot who don't know a shit of what he is trying to discuss here, right?

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Originally Posted by Europa Nazione

He simply don't know which term to use, like 90% people which discuss about genetics.

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Later, to prove your theory you posted this study:

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html
Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.
Tosks about 23%
Arbereshe about 30%
(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)
You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.

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But you failed to tell us according to this study how percent of this 104 Tosk Albanians were I2a1b. It`s really funny.
So, your attempt to enter into a genetic disussion, failed miserably.
What remained was the historical discussion.
Here, you are an expert troll.
You have repeatedly ignored my invitation to present your theory, when it relates to the Albanians, and specifically in regards to Tosk Albanians. It`s you "tactic", if we can call in this way. And here is difficult to beat you, Mark Twain explain very well the reason:
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

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Originally Posted by Laberia

Scholarios, i invite you to stop following the example of davai, stop digging in the garbage.
First of all you have to tell what is your theory. Internet is full with every kind of information and disinformation. You have to decide what is your opinion. I think this is the right way to discuss and i am ready. The other way, i am sorry but i can`t follow you. You have here this bubu and you can exchange your liquids together.
Regards.

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But it`s time to give an end to your stupidity. You have an theory Scholarios and this your "theory" can be reconstructed reading your posts in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

I am just explaining the mystery of the "birds and the bees".
But yes, South Albania and Northwest Greece was a place of all sorts of mixings.

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The bird start to sing. Nice.

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

sources given, mon ami. ad nauseum in fact. Now please, answer the question dear- why so much Slavic i2a1b in South Albania? Are the books about Slavic sea in South Albania lying as conspiracy of the Great SOROS? I am confused. Please don't give up- I'd like to see how bad your English gets as you try to formulate your next poor excuse for trolling.
Thanks IN ADVANCE.

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

As regards Labs, that's not my theory , but that of a wise old Kurveleshiote. As far as all Tosks being newcomers, well that is more or less mainstream history, as elaborated previously. (including Jochalas).

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When you have elaborated this fact? I have explained very well that Albanians are native in Epir, i.e. South Albania with this post:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4173569
Your answer, or as you call it as elaborated previously, was this:

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Just sit back and enjoy the salty tears of Chams.

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Very elaborate answer, typical for a greek nationalist.Twain was right.

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

That is consistent with the theory of Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups.

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Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Yep, but Tosks in Greece in late middle ages, not early. Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat. Sure, they started expanding in Albania since the early Middle ages tho.

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Well done. I think we can reconstruct you theory now. But we want a map first to explain to the rest of the people your theory:
This is a map of the dialects of Albanian language:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/imagecgi.jpg
The theory of Scholarios is that all Tosks being newcomers from North. A theory, product of greek chauvinism in order to justify the occupation of part of Epir, i.e. South Albania, and intentions of Greece to occupy the other half. It`s called, Megaliidea.
This newcomers from the North, found Slavic sea in Epir, i.e. South Albania. This newcomers(Tosk), Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat.
If you look at the Dialectological map of Albania, following the theory of Scholarios, this newcomers were arrived at the number 6 in the map. Berat is a little bit in the left of number 6. The rest, continue to be a Slavic sea,number 7, Labs and number 8 Chams, always according to the theory of Scholarios, Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups. When? He don`t tell us, but we have to assume, following Scholarios, at least in the XIV century or latter.
I invite you to notice the island of Corfu at the bottom of the map, because is very important.
This was the reconstruction of the theory of Scholarios.
What is the truth. Ok. let`s quote a greek author, Kostas Giakoumis:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...of_Gjirokaster
I don`t share his point of view, but opinions are one things and facts and documents another thing. I am quoting this greek scholar:


The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning
of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources:
the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent
facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;(20) and the second
is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a
certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of
the famous Shpata family.(21) Furthermore, I suggest that names that
appear in two acts of the Angevins of Naples dated 1304 (22) using the
forms, Albos, Spatos, Catarucos, Bischesini, Aranitos, Lecenis,
Turbaceos, Marchaseos, Scuras, Zeneuias, Bucceseos, Logoresc and
Mateseos are either well-known, less-known or totally unknown names
of Albanian clan leaders at that time.



(20.) G. Tafel - G. Tomas (1856), 122.
(21). N. Bees - E. Seferli, 'Unedierte Schriftstiicke aus der Kanzlei des Johannes
Apokaukos', BN] 21 (1974), doc. 62. For views on this name as being ancestral to
the name 'Shpata', see P. Xhufi (1994), 47 and note 132.
(22). L. Thalloczy - K. Jirecek - M. Sufflay (1913), 166a, doc. 563 and 167-168,
doc. 569.

According to Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus
Ἤπειρος, Ḗpeiros (Doric: Ἄπειρος, Ápeiros), meaning "mainland" or terra firma.[3] It is thought to come from an Indo-European root *apero- 'coast',[4] and was originally applied to the mainland opposite Corfu and the Ionian islands.[5]
So according to Venetians in year 1210, so not centuries later but at the beginning of the XIII century the continent facing the island of Corfu, la terra firma was inhabited by Albanians. I don`t see a slavic sea, i don`t see greeks in Epir, i don`t see vlacs, only Albanias. And when you are in Corfu and you look in the east, you see at your left number 7, Laberia and to your right number 8 Chameria. This is what also saw this Venetian official, when he prepared this document. And this albanians did not arrived during the night in year 1210. This Albanians were there, because the Albanians are autochthonous in Epirus or South Albania.
The mystery of the "birds and the bees", resolved
Pseudohistory and greek chauvinism debunked.
Troll busted.

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Originally Posted by IceT

Maybe the first wave of Slavs but certainly not the proto Serbs and Proto Croats.

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There was already a Serbian state in the Balkans, Rascia, since the beginning of 7th century, and Serbs and Croats were known as such even before they came to the Balkans. The only question is whether there wasn't also a presence of Bulgarian Slavs or not at this point, as there was later on, and which is seen in the intermediate Bulgarian-Serb Torlak dialect, and the fact that much of the toponymy we Albanians inherited from Slavs in Kosovo follows Bulgarian and not Serbian phonetic rules.

The first Bulgarian Empire lasted for 100 years. Simeon I of Bulgaria was referred to as half Greek. Battle of Kleidion in 1018 crippled them. They were crushed Samuel was killed - 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers were captured and their eyes were taken out and sent back. The Bulgarians were then expelled from Byzantine provinces. Bulgarians were also crushed in Dyrrhachium in were Bulgarians became subjagated. 2nd Bulgarian empire lasted for 60 years and was annhialted.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

There was already a Serbian state in the Balkans, Rascia, since the beginning of 7th century, and Serbs and Croats were known as such even before they came to the Balkans. The only question is whether there wasn't also a presence of Bulgarian Slavs or not at this point, as there was later on, and which is seen in the intermediate Bulgarian-Serb Torlak dialect, and the fact that much of the toponymy we Albanians inherited from Slavs in Kosovo follows Bulgarian and not Serbian phonetic rules.

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There are no 'Bulgarian Slavs' in this case. Bulgarian is just a Turkic identity that went on to become a political entity. Really the only difference is the Balkan Slavs (part of the Balkan sprachsbound or whatever it's called) and the Dinaric Slavs which are the Serbs and Croats. The Balkan Slavs have become synonymous with Bulgarians since the Bulgars ruled the larger mass of them and their descendants today are mainly the Bulgarians and Macedonians, and they are linguistically tied. Serbs intruded into Kosovo and other areas and brought the Slavs of those areas into their political and then ethnic fold without stripping away many of their older features. So we can say the Slavs of southern Albania predated 'Bulgarians' but were most similar to what we think were 'Bulgarian Slavs'. To say they were simply Bulgarians is wrong as that term is politically and historicaly loaded.

ss

How common is slavic Y-DNA in Albanian lands?

No I don't mean anything that can be more linked to slavs in the balkans but is native or whatever. I mean actually traced back as slavic, from slavs- Poland, Ukraine etc.

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Originally Posted by Albobalboa

How common is slavic Y-DNA in Albanian lands?

No I don't mean anything that can be more linked to slavs in the balkans but is native or whatever. I mean actually traced back as slavic, from slavs- Poland, Ukraine etc.

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I2a1b(Dinaric) is a Slavic marker not native and it is found in Albania at about 10% or less depending on region, it is lower in frequencies in the north than in the south which has a higher amount of I2a1b

Also R1a which is Slavic or Germanic depending on clusters or subclades is found at about 9% or less in Albania although most of these are probably Slavic clusters

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Also R1a which is Slavic or Germanic depending on clusters or subclades is found at about 9% or less in Albania although most of these are probably Slavic clusters

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So 20% Y-DNA in Albania is "foreign" from the balkans?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group

All there

In a few years, as genetic tests become more refined and widespread, they will start to have a larger effect on identity. So basically the storm will wipe out 20% or so of Albanians, that's not too bad.

Edit: I don't know jack shit about genetics, I'm just interested in getting to some sort of core to that shit. In the end all is foreign bla bla. But I want to pinpoint it somehow. Anything but slavic y-dna is fine by me. Anything spread by slavs is cancer to my cells. It is slavsquat kompot and lacks besa.