Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

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Originally Posted by rero

If you add "East" before Germans and replace Polish with Slavic, I kind of agree with you. There are not so many Slavic influenced people in Western Germany (I suspect even the Poles that came to Ruhrgebiet are today Germanic-admixed). Most people in Western Germany have nothing to with Slavs though.

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Yeah i will try it.Thanks for the tips.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rero

If you add "East" before Germans and replace Polish with Slavic, I kind of agree with you. There are not so many Slavic influenced people in Western Germany (I suspect even the Poles that came to Ruhrgebiet are today Germanic-admixed). Most people in Western Germany have nothing to with Slavs though.

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Yes, Slavic too. But many also have actual Polish Germanized ancestry.

That is the case of Kramkowski from Ermland, a region which had largely ethnically Polish population - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmia

For example here is the ethnic data for Kreis Allenstein for 1820s-30s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_P...ious_structure

"(...) Catholic Poles - so called Warmiaks (not to be confused with predominantly Protestant Masurians) - comprised the majority of population, numbering 26,067 people (~81%) in county Allenstein (Polish: Olsztyn) in 1837.[10] (...)"

https://i.imgur.com/r7tpiZL.png

And here ethnic data for towns/villages of Southern Ermland in 1910:

https://docplayer.org/25809174-Sprac...ittschell.html

https://i.imgur.com/51CpVQ9.png


https://i.imgur.com/Zrxvth5.png


https://i.imgur.com/NsGE1pz.png


https://i.imgur.com/42F2QyP.png


https://i.imgur.com/9FNNNbn.png


https://i.imgur.com/ln0n7f2.png

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Yes, Slavic too. But many also have actual Polish Germanized ancestry.

That is the case of Kramkowski from Ermland, a region which had largely ethnically Polish population...

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I see that you often post individual cases and I never know what to make of it because I don't know how well they represent the situation overall. For example, how do you know how many of those Poles that were in Warmia today live in Germany as "Germans"? Many maybe never left Poland? I mean only Germans had to leave after WW2.

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Originally Posted by rero

For example, how do you know how many of those Poles that were in Warmia today live in Germany as "Germans"? Many maybe never left Poland? I mean only Germans had to leave after WW2.

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Lots of them left already during the evacuation of East Prussia:
(which was when the Red Army was attacking since late 1944)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacua...f_East_Prussia

Most of the civilians were evacuated - regardless of ethnicity.

Macedonians and Bulgarians

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Lots of them left already during the evacuation of East Prussia:
(which was when the Red Army was attacking since late 1944)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacua...f_East_Prussia

Most of the civilians were evacuated - regardless of ethnicity.

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Ok but the problem is that there is no data where those people really end up living. I believe that you are right that some may today live in Germany not knowing about their roots but I would not assume that it's a huge number. East Prussia wasn't densely populated anyway and only part of people of polish background may have ended up in Germany(and of those not everyone necessarily forgot about their roots).

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Originally Posted by rero

Ok but the problem is that there is no data where those people really end up living. I believe that you are right that some may today live in Germany not knowing about their roots but I would not assume that it's a huge number. East Prussia wasn't densely populated anyway and only part of people of polish background may have ended up in Germany(and of those not everyone necessarily forgot about their roots).

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Well, all Germans east of the Oder-Neisse have admixture from Polish Slavic tribes, which were part of the Early Medieval Polish Kingdom.

See, here are the borders of the Polish Kingdom under the Piast Dynasty in 1138 and 1250 (the 2nd one after the loss of West Pomerania):

https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/ar...item/9928.html - article in English

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/53298/WA5...-Eberhardt.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/KdZhDYH.png

https://i.imgur.com/SGmdkmh.png

https://i.imgur.com/PctaNpg.png

On the other hand, Germans from the Elbe-Oder area have indeed ancestry from Slavic tribes like Polabians and Sorbs, not "Poles proper".

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Originally Posted by rero

(...)

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Check this book for example (in German), about the origins of German Silesians:

Karl Weinhold, "Die Verbreitung und die Herkunft der Deutschen in Schlesien" (1887):

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_CqpCAAAAIAAJ

Very interesting, for example he mentions surnames of original Polish Lower Silesians:

https://i.imgur.com/KT8GiUE.jpg

More fragments:

https://i.imgur.com/RAabwco.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HCVyCO7.jpg

that dna autosomal is a big hoax, majority of people use portuguese language in Brazil (and in Africa) but they aren't called Portuguese, majority of people speaking "Slavic" language in Russia etc. ... what if the real Slavs are Bulgarians... and Bosnians?

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Well, all Germans east of the Oder-Neisse have admixture from Polish Slavic tribes, which were part of the Early Medieval Polish Kingdom.

See, here are the borders of the Polish Kingdom under the Piast Dynasty in 1138 and 1250 (the 2nd one after the loss of West Pomerania):

On the other hand, Germans from the Elbe-Oder area have indeed ancestry from Slavic tribes like Polabians and Sorbs, not "Poles proper".

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Yes. I believe it's an interesting but also complex topic because big parts of Germany was Slavic territory and big parts of Poland was Germanic territory in the past so some mixing over time was ineveitable. However, if we look at genetics today as much as we can tell from the data that exists, that mixing was not huge and both populations are not very close when viewing whole populations. Western Germany shows no significant Slavic shift while East Germany is Slavic shifted in comparison but still not very close to the Polish average.