Samnium's Eurogenes results (FAKE)

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03-19-2020, 05:20 AM
SharpFork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnium

Well my ancestry is from an area that's Northern France genetically so not really cherrypicked. And Abruzzo can be more southern than Apulia, it's not surprising, I've seen many apulians samples scoring more "northern" than the Abruzzo average. Abruzzo isn't the tail end of the Southern Italian cluster.

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.

Quote:

Well Eurogenes can be kind of outdated, and there are blurry component, but what you need to understand is that what Tuscans and Emilians are East Med shifted compared to other Northern Italians. Modeling someone that's half "apulian" (we can take that) and half Northern French would make him plotting along Lombardy, Piemonte, Veneto rather than Emilia. "Northern" ratios don't match at all.

What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?

Quote:

That's a common oracle in Eurogenes for Northern Italians, because yes they do have some East Med ancestry inherited mainly from Roman Imperial era, also you don't seem to understand that there are heavy differences in Northern Italy depending if it's the plain or an alpine area... You can't use Alpine areas as a benchmark for all Northern Italy, because they are very atypical genetically.

Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).

Quote:

You're saying idiocies anyway, half Portuguese Italian half Central Greek (Apulian) model plot in Tuscany/Northern Tuscany, half French half Central Greece would plot in Emilia that's very Tuscan shifted ? That's not logical at all.

As they should given we are in the same ball park of Near Eastern DNA. French DNA doesn't eliminate the Near Eastern DNA.

The value I had before:

49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

Are directly comparable to Ligurian(although the Ligurian sample is just one and has weird Berber-like admixture, so whatever):

49.5% ENF, 13% Near Eastern+Berber, 29% Steppe and 8.5% WHG

And Piedmont:

55% ENF, 8.5% Near Eastern, 32% Steppe and 4.5% WHG

Tuscany is not that far:

54% ENF, 13% Near Eastern, 29% Steppe and 3% WHG

While on the other hand, Veneto looks like this:

57% ENF, 2.5% Near Eastern, 33% Steppe and 7.5% WHG

And Trentino like this:

57% ENF, 36% Steppe and 7% WHG

Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.
03-19-2020, 05:22 AM
Vid Flumina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnium

I live near the two samples but my Haute-Savoie ancestry isn't from there (it's another area). It's not in line with Giemza that sampled dozens of local people here and also from results that were partly from Haute-Savoie and Champagne (Northern France) and that end up being more "Northern" than full Champagne results. But it's still interesting to see that there are some Italian shifted people in middle of that.

Interesting, yeah I think that Haute-Savoie people plot near Swiss French, it's very logical to me. It's two very nearby areas. Like I said I've indeed some French Swiss maybe 1/4, I'm not sure.

You have to ask Lukasz what his FR_Savoie average consists of, because if it also includes Haute Savoie that's your closest approximation
03-19-2020, 05:55 AM
Samnium

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.

No it's not what I'm saying, I'm only saying that's not logical the region where I would "plot" given the half southern Italian results that I've seen on gedmatch (and knowing their exact ancestry papertrail), that's all.

It's simply incoherent.

And by the way I don't know if you have noticed, but it's not 50/50 for ancestry composition, not on G25 neither other calculator. So even your calculations are only one value that doesn't mean that much. That's why I made multiple models.

Quote:

What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?

What's the point ? You haven't seen the models that I made ?

None of them come as Emilian/Tuscan/Ligurian, and I even choose a very southern modelization like half S-Italian half Central Greek.

Quote:

Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.

You don't understand that you can have more Near Eastern admixture but also more Northern components (exactly like Galicians have more North-African but more North European admixture and they still plot well within the Iberian cluster), overall you will not plot more "southern". The Venetian sample has similar Northern/Southern ratio than the model that you made.

You're just saying that Eurogenes K13 calculator is completely inaccurate and that if you plot/you are close with Venetians in reality you plot with Emilians because you have more "Near Eastern DNA". :picard2:

Quote:

Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).

I think you haven't understood what I said, again. I'm talking about Eurogenes K13 modelizations.

And yes there are genetical differences between Alpine Italians and Italians that live in plain areas. Damn you clearly haven’t any clue about Southern Italian genetics.
03-19-2020, 05:58 AM
Samnium

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vid Flumina

You have to ask Lukasz what his FR_Savoie average consists of, because if it also includes Haute Savoie that's your closest approximation

I will ask but my guess is Southern Savoie, which turn out to be similar to Provence, no surprise (Southern Savoie is almost Provence geographically).

Haute-Savoie hasn't really a good average, and I haven't seen lot of Haute-Savoie results, but Giemza showed that's an area that's in the Northern France cluster, these results are very Italian shifted, never seen something like that, even more than Auvergnats/Central French. It's very atypical also considering Haute-Savoie results that I have found that were halfway between West German and French average on Eurogenes K13.
03-19-2020, 09:22 AM
Rocinante

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.

What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?

Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).

As they should given we are in the same ball park of Near Eastern DNA. French DNA doesn't eliminate the Near Eastern DNA.

The value I had before:

49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

Are directly comparable to Ligurian(although the Ligurian sample is just one and has weird Berber-like admixture, so whatever):

49.5% ENF, 13% Near Eastern+Berber, 29% Steppe and 8.5% WHG

And Piedmont:

55% ENF, 8.5% Near Eastern, 32% Steppe and 4.5% WHG

Tuscany is not that far:

54% ENF, 13% Near Eastern, 29% Steppe and 3% WHG

While on the other hand, Veneto looks like this:

57% ENF, 2.5% Near Eastern, 33% Steppe and 7.5% WHG

And Trentino like this:

57% ENF, 36% Steppe and 7% WHG

Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 1.3273% / 0.01327337
46.8 YAMNAYA
46.6 FARMER
5.2 WHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.6 MAR_EN

Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:

FARMER 52~%
YAMNAYA 40~%
WHG 3~%
IRN_Wezmeh_N 3~%
MAR_EN 1~%
03-19-2020, 09:25 AM
Samnium

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtíbero Itálico

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 1.3273% / 0.01327337
46.8 YAMNAYA
46.6 FARMER
5.2 WHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.6 MAR_EN

Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:

FARMER 52~%
YAMNAYA 40~%
WHG 3~%
IRN_Wezmeh_N 3~%
MAR_EN 1~%

Your calculator give strong fits, overall. It's very interesting, I will use it
03-19-2020, 10:04 AM
Vid Flumina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnium

I will ask but my guess is Southern Savoie, which turn out to be similar to Provence, no surprise (Southern Savoie is almost Provence geographically).

Savoie is Northern French as well on your map, lumped with Seine Maritime/Artois xD

Do you reckon both profiles (Provençal-like and Northern French-like) coexist within such tiny area?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnium

Haute-Savoie hasn't really a good average, and I haven't seen lot of Haute-Savoie results, but Giemza showed that's an area that's in the Northern France cluster, these results are very Italian shifted, never seen something like that, even more than Auvergnats/Central French.

Perfectly matches geography, what's so baffling about it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnium

It's very atypical also considering Haute-Savoie results that I have found that were halfway between West German and French average on Eurogenes K13.

Would you mind posting them?
03-19-2020, 10:35 AM
Token

Haute-Savoie is Provençal-like, like Aosta Valley. These studies with modern samples have a fame of not being accurate.
03-19-2020, 10:49 AM
trebil

Quote:

Originally Posted by gixajo

Where is typical South Italian SSA?

there is no typical South Italian SSA, SSA in south Italians is very low and rare
03-19-2020, 10:58 AM
gixajo

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebil

there is no typical South Italian SSA, SSA in south Italians is very low and rare

It was a joke to make reference to the recurrent topic that always blame about any European population considered "dark".:thumb001:

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