I can't be bothered speculating until we have both G25, dating and location of the samples.
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I can't be bothered speculating until we have both G25, dating and location of the samples.
I think it's true logically. But wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raizen
Should be added this evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
will we have frankish-era samples??Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukasz
Not in this dataset. Younger are Iron age Gauls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raizen
These samples are from:
https://www.inrap.fr/ancestra-10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
So West German shifted from Alsace, British and Scandic shifted from Picardie and Italian shifted from Languedoc? If it would be so easy? :) So not great change since those times.Quote:
Le projet ANCESTRA a pour but de retracer le peuplement du territoire correspondant à la France de nos jours en étudiant l’impact de chaque vague de migration depuis le Néolithique jusqu’à l’époque Mérovingienne.
Analyse paléogénétique d'ossements humains datés du Néolithique au haut Moyen Âge provenant du Languedoc-Roussillon, d'Alsace et de Picardie.
Also we should expect Frankish too...
I guess this time they are not Rhaetians but actual Basques/Iberians, lol
I sent also Bronze Age samples to Davidski:
BIS130
BIS385
EUG11
NIED
OBE3626-1
OBE3722
PIR3037AB
PIR3116B
PSS4170
QUIN234
QUIN58
RIX15
RIX2
RIX4
And here their Eurogenes K15 results:
Attachment 97876
There are two new French Bell Beakers in this paper as well, here is one of them already in G25:
Code:,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.138864,0.116786,0.047894,0 .085272,0.020311,0.039324,0.001175,0.003923,-0.024747,-0.031345,0.011367,0.002098,-0.000149,-0.015964,0.038273,-0.00305,-0.006258,-0.001774,-0.004651,0.004252,0.000749,-0.006801,0.003821,0.00964,-0.00455
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.0122,0.0115,0.0127,0.0264, 0.0066,0.0141,0.0005,0.0017,-0.0121,-0.0172,0.007,0.0014,-0.0001,-0.0116,0.0282,-0.0023,-0.0048,-0.0014,-0.0037,0.0034,0.0006,-0.0055,0.0031,0.008,-0.0038
Eurogenes K13, Dodecad K12b and MichalK25 results for France Bronze and Iron:
Attachment 97883
Attachment 97882
Attachment 97881
Good explanation. People forget about non-Indo-European languages still being prevalent or at least common in that period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raizen
This Swiss has a very non-Steppe phenotype I suppose. And he is actually quite typical Swiss German I believe. Neolithic farmer stronk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not a Cop
https://static.berkutschi.com/berkut...peg?1545826810
There is no Steppe or ENF look, we have good reason to believe that phenotype changed during the bronze age, outside the fact it can always change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
Just theoritising. I did not mean that those Neolithic farmers were identical. Either way he would be atypical in Denmark for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Any news?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-Eurogenes-K15Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpFork
Target: A_scaledQuote:
Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas
Distance: 1.8736% / 0.01873582
43.6 Celtic
24.2 ImperialRoman
11.4 Germanic
11.4 Mozabite
9.4 Iberia_Central_BA
So what about the French G25 stuff?
Top 3 closest modern populations to each Iron Age and Bronze Age French sample in my opinion:
(but let's wait for official Global25 data)
RIX4
DE_Saarland
FR_Lower-Normandy
FR_Ile-de-France
RIX2
DE_Rheinland-Pfalz
FR_Ile-de-France
FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
RIX15
FR_Nord
FR_Lorraine
FR_Auvergne
QUIN58
ES_Valencia
ES_Aragon
ES_Galicia
QUIN234
ES_Cantabria
ES_Castilla-Leon-Burgos
ES_Castilla-Leon-Soria
PSS4170
ES_Valencia
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre
FR_Pyrenees-Orientales
PIR3116B
FR_Picardy
GB_North-East-England
IRL_Ulster
PIR3037AB
ES_Valencia-Castellon
ES_Baleares
ES_Cataluna
PEY53
FR_Bretagne
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Picardy
PEI2
ES_La-Rioja
ES_Castilla-Leon-Soria
ES_Cantabria
PECH5
ES_Cataluna-Girona
ES_Galicia
FR_Picardy
OBE3626-1
IRL_Leinster
IRL_Munster
IRL_Connacht
NOR4
ITA_Veneto-Verona
ITA_Aosta
PRT_Portugal-Lisboa
NOR3-6
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Lower-Normandy
FR_Picardy
NOR3-15
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Upper-Normandy
FR_Nord
NOR2B6
FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
PRT_Portugal-Lisboa
FR_Auvergne
NIED
ES_Baleares-Mallorca
ES_Cataluna-Lleida
ES_Cataluna-Girona
Jeb8
DE_Rheinland-Pfalz
ITA_Aosta
AT_Tyrol
EUG11
ES_Cataluna-Tarragona
FR_Pyrenees-Orientales
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre
ERS88
ITA_Lombardy-Bergamo
ITA_Tuscany-Florence
ITA_Lombardy-Brescia
ERS86
ES_Cataluna-Tarragona
FR_Languedoc
CH_Romandy
ERS1164
DE_Saarland
GB_Scotland-Lanarkshire
CH_Romandy
COL153i
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre
FR_Centre-Val-de-Loire
ITA_Friuli-Udine
COL153A
AT_Tyrol
DE_Saarland
ITA_Friuli-Sappada
COL11
IRL_Galway
GB_Scotland-Highland
(...)
BIS385
FR_Hauts-de-France
DE_Rheinpfalz
BE_Wallonia
BIS130
FR_Picardy
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Bretagne
BFM265
FR_Picardy
FR_Bretagne-Rennes
FR_Pas-de-Calais
BES1248
FR_Upper-Normandy
GB_Lancashire
GB_Cumbria
ATT26
DE_Rheinpfalz
DE_Baden-Wurttemberg
(...)
They appear quite varied. I'm looking forward to when the full study is released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Updated results for French Iron Age and Bronze Age samples in several calculators:
(most of the previously present noise is removed from these results)
Attachment 97978
One French Bell Beaker sample is also included (the one with 0% West_Med in K15).
Where does this sample come from? PRT_Portugal-Lisboa
A pitty it's not in G25.
If they are from the link Peterski sent then their variety makes sense, they come from Rousillioun/Langedoc, Alsace and Picardy. Knowing which is from where is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
Hypothesis of Central European Celtic homeland is outdated completelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ruggery
https://i.imgur.com/ozUhAAn.png
The Ancient Celts 2nd Edition.2018. Barry Cunliffe
This seems fairly reasonable, all of them looke western European aboriginal and not migrants from east as traditional speculations used to claimQuote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Only one of them looks a bit strange
Could be very late Iron Age from Alpine areaQuote:
ERS88
ITA_Lombardy-Bergamo
ITA_Tuscany-Florence
ITA_Lombardy-Brescia
Ancient DNA has dismantled the 'Celts from the West' theory, not that the theory ever made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas
Well they definitely aren't from the West and Irish, Scots and Welsh don't appear to be very similar to Continental Celts at all. Awaiting more Gaul samples but as i've always said Celts appear very varied. It's almost like people were named Celts just because they weren't Romans or Greeks. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas
This is the "face" of a celtic GALATI as seen from "greek" point of view III century B.C.
Don't forget Saint Paul letters ( GOSPEL- NEW TESTAMENT ) to Galatians ...That means that CELTIC GALATIANS were not TINY tribes in Anatolia and Balkans area..
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/67...c6aeb21346.jpg
That's right, ancient chroniclers described Celts as different in terms of appearance, some of them as clearly Mediterranids another as Nordoid, but mostly as somwhere in between, lighter than Iberians for example, but darker than Germanics. Anthropoligical cranial analyses also show gracile Med-Nord range, with brachycephalic large minority, that differed form Germanic and even from Halsttate samplesQuote:
Originally Posted by Altaison
What exact ancient DNA dismantled it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
So standing as opposition 'Central European theory' made more sense?
Everything that you've said does not contradict west-east expansionQuote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
:eek: No, Romans and Greeks gave very clear explanations who were the CeltsQuote:
It's almost like people were named Celts just because they weren't Romans or Greeks. :p
It's not known what pigmentation has this type, but very similar to highly reduced Borreby, western European typeQuote:
Originally Posted by renaissance12
Well British Isles populations appear to be just Bronze Age Bell Beaker. Of course there was some input from some other groups but Insular Celts appear overwhelmingly Bell Beaker and no Continental Celts appear to match them very closely. I really think that many populations were named Celtic erroneously in ancient times. I think this will be sorted out in the future with more ancient genomes. The Bell Beakers used to be a bit of a conundrum but with more ancient genomes it now appears pretty conclusive that Bell Beakers were an offshoot of Corded Ware which if anyone looked at it logically in the past is not a big surprise. Autosomally it always made sense but people used to think that Corded Ware were R1a and Bell Beaker were R1b so they thought they were different groups but now it has been shown that Corded Ware have a lot of R1b also. The Celtic issue will be sorted out as well but anyone with a bit of nonce would know that there are obviously a lot of people called Celts that aren't the same genetically. I think this is obvious now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas
Ancient romans and greeks described the Celts... and there are also statues of their physical traits.. They could have different hair colour but their physical facial traits were similar.. and also their culture was the same everywere in Europe..and Anatolia..Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...fV0lp&usqp=CAU
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...g?format=1500w
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...h9wFr&usqp=CAU
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Inv8574_n7.jpg
:eek: You'll might be very surprised, but it's not contradict to the west-east Celtic expansion as well. Rather argues in favour of it because of distribution of patrilineal DNA in EuropeQuote:
Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley
There's no evidence of people from the Atlantic Fringes of Europe having a genetic impact on Central or Eastern Europe from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, on the contrary there is evidence of Iberia and the British Isles being genetically impacted in that timeframe, both autosomally and in Y-DNA. Iberians and Insular 'Celts' have been overwhelmingly R-DF27 and R-L21 respectively since the Bell Beakers, but those subclades have stayed almost exclusive to Atlantic Europe since that time. The argument for 'Celts from the West' would thus have to be a spread of Celtic culture from West to East without any migration, even though the earliest known Celtic culture is in Central Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas
I trust much more the ancient roman and greek's statues of European Celts ( particularly the romans statue because romans didn't like very much the "ideal" ).... from Spain to England from west Germany to Anatolia..with all central Europe in between.. - North west Italy also - ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
How exactly was it dismantled? Celts could emerge from Bell Beakers at the Atlantic coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
You are forgetting that Celts emerged during the Late Bronze Age, not during Copper Age.
======
This image clearly says "Atlantic Late Bronze Age networks" as the Proto-Celtic homeland:
https://i.imgur.com/ozUhAAn.png
^^^
In Late Bronze Age times, everyone had a lot of Steppe ancestry all over that yellow area.
Very interesting, i am at full attention. How Gaulish, Iberian, British and easpecially Irish were impacted in Iron Age by Central European. Are you going by genetics here, or maybe archaeological, historical?Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Maybe,... not sure, there must be more DNA samples from late Halstatt and especially La Tene gravesQuote:
The argument for 'Celts from the West' would thus have to be a spread of Celtic culture from West to East without any migration.
"Celts from the West" does NOT imply that Celts were not descended from Yamnaya.
Everyone had Yamnaya DNA along the Atlantic Facade already in the Early Bronze Age.
=====
This is a French Bell Beaker, who lived long before the emergence of Proto-Celts:
^^^Code:,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.138864,0.116786,0.047894,0.085272,0.020311,0.039324,0.001175,0.003923,-0.024747,-0.031345,0.011367,0.002098,-0.000149,-0.015964,0.038273,-0.00305,-0.006258,-0.001774,-0.004651,0.004252,0.000749,-0.006801,0.003821,0.00964,-0.00455
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.0122,0.0115,0.0127,0.0264,0.0066,0.0141,0.0005,0.0017,-0.0121,-0.0172,0.007,0.0014,-0.0001,-0.0116,0.0282,-0.0023,-0.0048,-0.0014,-0.0037,0.0034,0.0006,-0.0055,0.0031,0.008,-0.0038
Celts could easily emerge from such Atlantic Bell Beakers who had a lot of Steppe DNA.