Your explanation/reasoning makes perfect sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
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Your explanation/reasoning makes perfect sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Rothaer & Creoda,
The Anglo-Saxon migration did not start and end in 450 AD. It lasted for about 100-150 years - each year new boats were coming.
Quote:
"(...) One of the arguments against an Anglo-Saxon ‘folk migration’ has been the presumed lack of sea transport capacity. However, assuming up to 200,000 migrants and a migration period of about 100 years, the seemingly large number of migrants breaks down into no more than 2000 per year. Depending on assumptions about additional cargo, this translates into 100 to 200 boat loads of the Nydam type, the large rowing boat found in the Jutish bog deposit of Nydam and dating to around ad 400. If each boat made no more than two return trips per season, the entire migration would not have required more than 50 to 100 boats in operation at any one time in the triangle between southern Norway, the western Baltic and the mouth of the Rhine. (...) The immigration itself was not a single ‘invasion’, but rather a series of intrusions and immigrations over a considerable period, differing from region to region, and changing over time even within regions. The total immigrant population may have numbered somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 over about a century. (...)"
So ethnically Slavic migrants could arrive even as late as in 550 AD or 600 AD, and that was still part of the Anglo-Saxon migration.
No - it was from 450 AD to 600 AD. It was a process which lasted for approximately 150 years. See the quotation above.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Aremorica is not just today's Brittany. It is today's Brittany + Normandy as far east as the Seine River (the mouth of the Seine).
This was the easternmost Armorican tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexovii ("Lexovii were part of the civitates Aremoricae")
And what is your evidence that Saxons lived there ???
No it is not a speculation, it is a scientific theory by Dr Heinrich Härke:Quote:
What you do quote is a speculation
https://www.reading.ac.uk/archaeolog...heinrich-harke
Ethnic map of ancient Western Europe, you see Lexovii (Armorican tribe) living near the mouth of the Seine River:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexovii
To the east of Lexovii lived the Belgae, also Celtic peoples. Where do you see Saxons in this area? Any evidence?:
https://i.redd.it/y3akpsjso6gz.jpg
Even to the east of the Belgae there were Frisii (Frisians) not Saxons; and yes they also participated in migration:
https://i.redd.it/y3akpsjso6gz.jpg
The English wikipedia is more objective and based on internationally accepted sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Also your German wikipedia article does not cite any source to support this information.
What book is this?:
Stefanie Dick: 2015, S. 29–30
We know because there is the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" (which describes the events year by year) and there is archeology.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle - https://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/ang05.asp
Migration starts in 449 AD:
A.D. 449. This year Marcian and Valentinian assumed the empire, and reigned seven winters. In their days Hengest and Horsa, invited by Wurtgern, king of the Britons to his assistance, landed in Britain in a place that is called Ipwinesfleet; first of all to support the Britons, but they afterwards fought against them. The king directed them to fight against the Picts; and they did so; and obtained the victory wheresoever they came. They then sent to the Angles, and desired them to send more assistance. They described the worthlessness of the Britons, and the richness of the land. They then sent them greater support. Then came the men from three powers of Germany; the Old Saxons, the Angles, and the Jutes. From the Jutes are descended the men of Kent, the Wightwarians (that is, the tribe that now dwelleth in the Isle of Wight), and that kindred in Wessex that men yet call the kindred of the Jutes. From the Old Saxons came the people of Essex and Sussex and Wessex. From Anglia, which has ever since remained waste between the Jutes and the Saxons, came the East Angles, the Middle Angles, the Mercians, and all of those north of the Humber. Their leaders were two brothers, Hengest and Horsa; who were the sons of Wihtgils; Wihtgils was the son of Witta, Witta of Wecta, Wecta of Woden. From this Woden arose all our royal kindred, and that of the Southumbrians also.
((A.D. 449. And in their days Vortigern invited the Angles thither, and they came to Britain in three ceols, at the place called Wippidsfleet.))
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And ca. 50 years later the chronicle mentions that more people are still coming (with more boats):
A.D. 495. This year came two leaders into Britain, Cerdic and Cynric his son, with five ships, at a place that is called Cerdic's-ore. And they fought with the Welsh the same day. Then he died, and his son Cynric succeeded to the government, and held it six and twenty winters. Then he died; and Ceawlin, his son, succeeded, who reigned seventeen years. Then he died; and Ceol succeeded to the government, and reigned five years. When he died, Ceolwulf, his brother, succeeded, and reigned seventeen years. Their kin goeth to Cerdic. Then succeeded Cynebils, Ceolwulf's brother's son, to the kingdom; and reigned one and thirty winters. And he first of West-Saxon kings received baptism. Then succeeded Cenwall, who was the son of Cynegils, and reigned one and thirty winters. Then held Sexburga, his queen, the government one year after him. Then succeeded Escwine to the kingdom, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and held it two years. Then succeeded Centwine, the son of Cynegils, to the kingdom of the West-Saxons, and reigned nine years. Then succeeded Ceadwall to the government, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and held it three years. Then succeeded Ina to the kingdom of the West-Saxons, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned thirty-seven winters. Then succeeded Ethelheard, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned sixteen years. Then succeeded Cuthred, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned sixteen winters. Then succeeded Sigebriht, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned one year. Then succeeded Cynwulf, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned one and thirty winters. Then succeeded Brihtric, whose kin goeth to Cerdic, and reigned sixteen years. Then succeeded Egbert to the kingdom, and held it seven and thirty winters, and seven months. Then succeeded Ethelwulf, his son, and reigned eighteen years and a half. Ethelwulf was the son of Egbert, Egbert of Ealmund, Ealmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa, Eoppa of Ingild, Ingild of Cenred (Ina of Cenred, Cuthburga of Cenred, and Cwenburga of Cenred), Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cuthwulf, Cuthwulf of Cuthwine, Cuthwine of Celm, Celm of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda, Creoda of Cerdic. Then succeeded Ethelbald, the son of Ethelwulf, to the kingdom, and held it five years. Then succeeded Ethelbert, his brother, and reigned five years. Then succeeded Ethelred, his brother, to the kingdom, and held it five years. Then succeeded Alfred, their brother, to the government. And then had elapsed of his age three and twenty winters, and three hundred and ninety-six winters from the time when his kindred first gained the land of Wessex from the Welsh. And he held the kingdom a year and a half less than thirty winters. Then succeeded Edward, the son of Alfred, and reigned twenty-four winters. When he died, then succeeded Athelstan, his son, and reigned fourteen years and seven weeks and three days. Then succeeded Edmund, his brother, and reigned six years and a half, wanting two nights. Then succeeded Edred, his brother, and reigned nine years and six weeks. Then succeeded Edwy, the son of Edmund, and reigned three years and thirty-six weeks, wanting two days. When he died, then succeeded Edgar, his brother, and reigned sixteen years and eight weeks and two nights. When he died, then succeeded Edward, the son of Edgar (...)
Rothaer, when excavating Anglo-Saxon burials, archeologists are able to tell if someone buried in a grave was an immigrant or British-born.
They check this using strontium etc. isotopes levels from teeth etc. (it is not based on DNA).
And there are graves from as late as 550-600 AD which still show non-local isotope values. Which means they came to Britain as immigrants.
Based on such evidence Dr Heinrich Härke wrote that the migration was a prolonged process.
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle continued - 6th century and new immigrants are still being mentioned:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/ang06.asp
A.D. 501. This year Porta and his two sons, Beda and Mela, came into Britain, with two ships, at a place called Portsmouth.
A.D. 514. This year came the West-Saxons into Britain, with three ships, at the place that is called Cerdic's-ore.
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Obviously only a fraction of immigrants were mentioned in the chronicle, especially some of the important ones by name.
This map basically indicates that there were Saxons present already in Roman Britain ca. 380 AD:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachse..._Saxonicum.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Saxonicum.png
^^^
So I'm not sure why do you even write that some invasion across the Channel was necessary, if they were in Britain?
However, I suppose those were only Saxon mercenaries serving in the Roman Army.
And Dr Heinrich Harke is writing about a migration of entire families, not just males.
And those families came not from that "Saxon Shore" (where only mercenaries were present), but from further east.
We don't know actually. A lot of the area was depopulated and there could be some Slavs expanding that far to the north-west already at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Whaaat? Saxon boats are still rowing to Britain in the current year 2022 ??? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Maybe Sadistiq Khan - the mayor of London - is indeed Saxon. The name fits.