But in second link I showed, the vlachs had their pseudo bishops ( according to the pope )and Hungarians and Saxons were going to live with them. Some people say they were in wallachia , some say southern Moldova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Printable View
But in second link I showed, the vlachs had their pseudo bishops ( according to the pope )and Hungarians and Saxons were going to live with them. Some people say they were in wallachia , some say southern Moldova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Vlachs were newcomers here, probably coming from South Transylvania. The area in this document is located on the foothills close to the areas of the fisrt mentions of Vlachs north of Danube. Probably, if not the Mongolian invasion, they could form an state formation over 100 years earlier, with the core in today Vrancea or Buzău, probably as a single state, not two like later Wallachia and Moldova, and probably without expansion into the Steppe areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by sage
Well they mostly like had a political organization because it's meationed that they were paying taxes to Prince bela at that time here is the full text:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
1234 November 14, Perugia Gregorius bishop etc. carissimo in Christo filio. B. regi, primogenito regis Hungary, salutem etc. In Cumanorum episcopatu, sicut accepimus, quidam populi, qui Walati vocantur, existunt, qui etsi censenatur nomine christiano, sub una tamen fide varios ritus habentes et mores, illa committunt, que huic sunt nomini inimica. Nam Romanorum ecclesiam contempnentes non a venerabili fratre nostro ... episcopo Cumanorum, qui loci diocesanus existit, sed a quibusdam pseudo episcopis Grecorum ritum tenentibus universa recipient ecclesiastica sacramenta, et nonnulli de regno Ungarie, tam Ungarie, quam Theutonici et alii orthodoxi, morandi causa cum ipsis traseunt ad eosdem, et sic cum eis, quia populus unus facti cum eisdem Walathis eo contempto, premise recipiunt sacramenta, in grave orthodoxorum scandalum et derogationem non modicam fidei christiane. Ne igitur ex diversitate rituum pericula proveniant animarum, nos volentes huiusimos periculum obviare, we preface Walathi materiam habeant pro defectu sacramentorum ad schismaticos episcopos accedendi, eidem episcopo nostis damus litteris in mandatis, ut catholicum eis episcopum illi nationi conformem provida deliberatione constituat sibi iuxta generalis statuta concilii vicarium in predictis, qui ei per omnia sit obediens et subiectus. Contradictory etc. usque compescendo Cum autem tu tamquam princeps catholicus ad communionem dilecti filii nostri I. Prenestini electi, tunc apostolice sedis legati, prestito iuramento promiseris, te omnes inobedientes Romane ecclesie in terra tua ad obediendum eidem ecclesie compulsurum prout confecte super hoc tue littere continebant, ac eidem electo viva voce promiseris, quod prefatos Walathos compelleres ad recipiendum episcopum, quem eis ecclesia ipsa concesserit et assignare sibi de redditibus tuis, quos ab eis percipis, sufficientes redditus et honestos, sicut idem electus nobis exposuit, regalem excellentiam rogamus, monemus et hortamur attente, ac in remissionem tibi iniungimus peccatorum, quatenus cum te non deceat in regno tuo huimoudis scismaticos sustinere, ac ea, que promisisti, deo grata et hominibus sint accepta ne faceas irrita, que de tuis labiis tam laudabiliter processerunt, ea studeas efficaciter adimplere, ita quod ex hoc pleaseas Regi Regum, et nos sincerititatis tue zelum possimus dignis in domino laudibus commendation. Datum Perusi XVIII Kal. Decembris, pontificatus nostri anno octavo
This document doesn't show any trace of some political organized formation, is just a mention of some "Walati" who were Orthodox, nothing more. Nothig about any cities/towns or villages, nothing about their social organisation. Totally different compared to the Diploma of the Joannites, were simple Vlach polities were mentioned south of the Carpathians.Quote:
Originally Posted by sage
Well some historians do link the papal diploma of 1234 and diploma of jonnities of 1247 together which they are only 13 years apart so maybe
Did you tho ? It's says they were paying taxes to bela. Also this document is mostly about religion not about politics but it does meation it.. also they big enough to convert Hungarians and saxons to the Greek rite so they were big enoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
I translate this part to English
, nos volentes huiusimos periculum obviare, we preface Walathi materiam habeant pro defectu sacramentorum ad schismaticos episcopos accedendi, eidem episcopo nostis damus litteris in mandatis, ut catholicum eis episcopum illi nationi conformem provida deliberatione constituat sibi iuxta generalis statuta concilii vicarium in predictis, qui ei per omnia sit obediens et subiectus. Contradictory etc. usque compescendo Cum autem tu tamquam princeps catholicus ad communionem dilecti filii nostri I. Prenestini electi, tunc apostolice sedis legati, prestito iuramento promiseris, te omnes inobedientes Romane ecclesie in terra tua ad obediendum eidem ecclesie compulsurum prout confecte super hoc tue littere continebant, ac eidem electo viva voce promiseris, quod prefatos Walathos compelleres ad recipiendum episcopum, quem eis ecclesia ipsa concesserit et assignare sibi de redditibus tuis, quos ab eis percipis, sufficientes redditus et honestos, sicut idem electus nobis exposuit, regalem excellentiam rogamus, monemus et hortamur attente, ac in remissionem tibi iniungimus peccatorum, quatenus cum te non deceat in regno tuo huimoudis scismaticos sustinere, ac ea, que promisisti, deo grata et hominibus sint accepta ne faceas irrita, que de tuis labiis tam laudabiliter processerunt, ea studeas efficaciter adimplere, ita quod ex hoc pleaseas Regi Regum, et nos sincerititatis tue zelum possimus dignis in domino laudibus commendation. Datum Perusi XVIII Kal. Decembris, pontificatus nostri anno octavo
English translation
we, wishing to avoid this very danger, we preface Walathi have material for the lack of sacraments for approaching schismatic bishops, we give the same bishop our letters in mandates, that he may appoint for himself, according to the general statutes of the council, a catholic bishop conformable to that nation, as vicar in the aforesaid, who shall be obedient and subject to him in all things. Contradictory etc. Even when you, as a Catholic prince, promised by oath to the communion of our beloved son I. Praenestinus, then legate of the apostolic see, that you would compel all those disobedient to the Roman Church in your land to obey the same Church, as your letters contained in detail on this, and you promised the same elected one by word of mouth that you would compel the aforementioned Wallachia to receive the bishop whom the Church itself has granted them and to assign to themselves sufficient and honest revenues from your revenues, which you receive from them, as the same elected one explained to us, we beg, warn and exhort your royal excellency attentively, and we enjoin upon you the remission of sins, so that since it is not fitting for you to tolerate schismatics in your kingdom, and that you do not make void the promises you have made, which are pleasing to God and acceptable to men, which have proceeded from your lips so laudably, you will strive to fulfill them effectively, so that from this you may please the King of Kings, and we may be able to show the zeal of your sincerity. A commendation worthy of praise in the Lord. Given at Perus on the 18th Kalends of December, in the eighth year of our pontificate.
Take in consideration what kind of population were Romanians/Vlachs at that time, entirely pastoralist comunities living exclusively on foothills or directly in the Carpathian mountains. Is not a simple coincidence what Romanian influence, both culturally and genetically, goes exclusively across entire Carpathian mountain chain as far as Moravia in Czech Republic.
And the prize for the most insane theory that doesn't involve aliens goes to:
https://i.imgur.com/orBPQ4Q.png
p. 105 https://www.muzeu.md/wp-content/uplo...spora-2019.pdf
From Cantemir district in Cahul county
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._judet.svg.png
<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; --darkreader-inline-color: var(--darkreader-text-000000, #e8e6e3);" data-darkreader-inline-color=""></google-sheets-html-origin>
N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan 15.29 30.81 18.06 8.28 22.19 1.25 0.71 1.09 1.79 0.41 0.12 0 0
Distance to: Pleseni 8.14556321 Moldovan_South 8.21350108 Pomak_Greece 8.56234197 Pomak_Bulgaria 9.12782011 Bulgarian_Northwestern 9.89438730 Bulgarian_Northcentral 10.14312082 Romanian_Dobruja 10.15226083 Montenegro_SouthEast 10.15421095 Bulgarian_Southcentral 10.25620300 Vlach_Serbia 10.29667908 Gagauz 10.57442670 Serb_SouthSerbia 10.58673226 Serb_EastSerbia 10.69186139 Romanian_Muntenia 10.85729248 Serb_KosovoMetohija 11.13934020 Romanian_Oltenia 11.19082660 Romanian_Moldavia_South 11.30893010 Bulgarian_Southwestern 11.31523310 Romanian_Banat 11.44660648 Romanian_Transylvania 11.51207627 Serb_CentralSerbia 11.70235019 Serb_Vojvodina 11.74629303 Romanian_Moldavia_Central 11.84111059 Bosniak_Southeast 11.87157530 Macedonian_North 11.89676847 Moldovan_Central
Quite unbalanced distribution between North Atlantic and Baltic, which can happen with 23andme v5 data in K13.