Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

I have a question. If Bulgarian Turks moved from Alfatar to Ukraine, why they became Bulgarians by surnames and identity or they were Bulgarians in this case?

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I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

Kaspias said, village Alfatar was most likely Turkish-Bulgarian or Turkish village. Look at ethnic map of Balkans in 18 century

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Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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Could Bulgarians and Turks mix with this village? Many people think no because of confession, but I saw some genetic results from northern Bulgaria and they score some Turkish. Even if one my distant ancestor was for example from Pleven, he mixed with those from Alfatar, because they lived in isolation in Ukraine for almost 200 years and mix with each other

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

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If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

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The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.

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Originally Posted by PAGANE

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

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Not exactly.

1. It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
2. There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
3. Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.

But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.





Not exactly.

1. It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
2. There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
3. Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.

But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

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Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

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23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

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You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admix

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Originally Posted by Abriekman

You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admkz

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Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

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Originally Posted by Kaspias

Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

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It contains Turkic, is it possible my Bulgarian ancestors have 10-20% DNA from Bulgars?